Algae problem with really low nutrients how can that be?
- Thread starter fullmonti
- Start date
fullmonti
now is the time
OK in fairness I did ask a simple short question and that is a simple short answer. I do believe that is also the easy catch-all answer that may not be true in every case.
That said I guess I'll need to give more info.
I could give way more back ground if needed but basically lets start will this and go from there. I set up a new 30 gallon breeder with a nice sump (about 50 gallon total) for a frag grow out system, using the skimmer, media, water and corals from two older established smallish tanks. This was a couple months ago.
Nitrate has never been detectable and phosphate is 0.02 in this system and still hair type algae started and I just thought even though everything but the new tank and sump came from established tanks the algae would go away after a few weeks. The algae has steadily gotten worse. I even used the chaeto from one of the old tanks, which has also grown quite big.
I have always been feeding the corals and continued the same regimen with the new tank. I combined the bio media from both old tanks which was quite a lot. My situation now is some of the corals are very unhappy with the very low nutrients so I took out part of the media a couple times now in hopes the nutrients would come up at least a little and deal with the algae after wards.
So, I still have some very unhappy corals(some receding), very low nutrients, a large ball of chaeto in the sump, a bunch of bio media and still the algae grows like crazy.
So if indeed the short answer of the algae is consuming the nutrients is correct and the available nutrients are all being consumed by the algae and chaeto, I guess the next question would be what can be done to get rid of the algae with out starving corals to death? Some of the corals are looking and doing just fine but some are still in trouble or I would have tried turning the lights out for three days already. I don't like using chemicals so not up on what may be available now but it may be time to try that?
Thanks for any help with this
Jim
That said I guess I'll need to give more info.
I could give way more back ground if needed but basically lets start will this and go from there. I set up a new 30 gallon breeder with a nice sump (about 50 gallon total) for a frag grow out system, using the skimmer, media, water and corals from two older established smallish tanks. This was a couple months ago.
Nitrate has never been detectable and phosphate is 0.02 in this system and still hair type algae started and I just thought even though everything but the new tank and sump came from established tanks the algae would go away after a few weeks. The algae has steadily gotten worse. I even used the chaeto from one of the old tanks, which has also grown quite big.
I have always been feeding the corals and continued the same regimen with the new tank. I combined the bio media from both old tanks which was quite a lot. My situation now is some of the corals are very unhappy with the very low nutrients so I took out part of the media a couple times now in hopes the nutrients would come up at least a little and deal with the algae after wards.
So, I still have some very unhappy corals(some receding), very low nutrients, a large ball of chaeto in the sump, a bunch of bio media and still the algae grows like crazy.
So if indeed the short answer of the algae is consuming the nutrients is correct and the available nutrients are all being consumed by the algae and chaeto, I guess the next question would be what can be done to get rid of the algae with out starving corals to death? Some of the corals are looking and doing just fine but some are still in trouble or I would have tried turning the lights out for three days already. I don't like using chemicals so not up on what may be available now but it may be time to try that?
Thanks for any help with this
Jim
fullmonti
now is the time
I do not run GFO, phosphate is already low enough to cause corals to circle the drain, I can imagine what those corals would do with even less phosphate. I do have hermits and snails a few each plus four mollies I changed over to salt water and they never stop picking. I have been scrubbing the algae off with a stiff brush. Algae is on the frag rack more than anywhere else so I take it out and put it in the old water from water change to scrub it down good.
The tank is bare bottom and the only rock in there is a few small pieces frags are glued to. I feed the same stuff the same way I did in the old tanks (very little of it has any green) and did not have a problem then.
The old tanks ran with nitrate of 5-10 and phosphate 0.0something usually 0.06-8 the corals that are struggling now thrived then. I have acro frags that are paler than when they were in the old tank (it was BB too) which I believe is from to low nutrient level??
I can't imagine simply trying to starve the algae out would not finish off some corals first. I'm hoping for some other way to deal with this other than starving the algae out.
The tank is bare bottom and the only rock in there is a few small pieces frags are glued to. I feed the same stuff the same way I did in the old tanks (very little of it has any green) and did not have a problem then.
The old tanks ran with nitrate of 5-10 and phosphate 0.0something usually 0.06-8 the corals that are struggling now thrived then. I have acro frags that are paler than when they were in the old tank (it was BB too) which I believe is from to low nutrient level??
I can't imagine simply trying to starve the algae out would not finish off some corals first. I'm hoping for some other way to deal with this other than starving the algae out.
wilsonreefs
Member
The Chaeto can and will consume some of the nutrients resulting in low test results. If it's a fairly new tank, hair algae seems to abound in them. Do you have the tank close to a open window or where sunlight or UV light can come into the tank?
fullmonti
now is the time
The tank is not near any windows. It is in the same place the old tanks were. I do pretty much think even though it was set up with every thing possible from established tanks it is a bit like a new tank situation.
The frag rack being the worst place for the algae, I'm going to take it out and spray it with hydrogen peroxide every week and manually remove as much as I can and feed less and see how that does for a while.
I appreciate the help but I can't bring my self to try and starve the tank to kill the algae when some of the corals are already struggling so.
kenpau
New member
What does the algae look like? Could it be dinoflagellates?
I made one of the biggest mistakes since I've been reef keeping on my last system by striving for no nutrients. I had a 30 gallon tank with overrated skimmer and algae reactor.
As far as I understand it, because dinoflagellates are photosynthetic they thrive in low nutrient environments where there is no competition from any algae types.
It pretty much destroyed my system....I'll never strive for zero nutrients again!
I made one of the biggest mistakes since I've been reef keeping on my last system by striving for no nutrients. I had a 30 gallon tank with overrated skimmer and algae reactor.
As far as I understand it, because dinoflagellates are photosynthetic they thrive in low nutrient environments where there is no competition from any algae types.
It pretty much destroyed my system....I'll never strive for zero nutrients again!
I keep seeing this statement. I'm certainly no scientist but I'm trying to understand how, if they can't be measured, can nutrients be available for consumption? If they can't be measured, they aren't there.
RBU1
Moving on Up
Think about it. It's the same reason why we grow algae in refugiums. The algae consumes the nutrients to grow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
While we can only rtest for phospahte aka orthophosphate aka disolved inorganic phosphate (DIP) there is also particulate organic phosphate (POP) and disolved orgainc phosphate (DIP). while corals can genreally use all three their prefference is DIP.
The same is true for nitrogen with particualate, organic anc inorganic forms which are being used by corals and algae. Additioanlly corals have diazotrophs or nitrogen fixing microbes in their holobiont.
If corals can't get enough phosphorus it creates a deficiency which seriously affects their photobiology which reduces the amount of food they're getting from thier zooxanthellae and affects their immune systems. One consequence is they are not able to compete with other algae as well which typically results in nuisance algae thriving even under low nutrient conditions. I would advise feeding your fish more.
I would recommend reading Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas".
And here's some more stuff :
"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks, I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs. It should therefore not come as a surprise that feeding corals in such systems becomes a very important component in these systems. Though reefs are often catagorized as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high when the total volume of water passing over a reef is taken into consideration.
Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path." Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127
"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus (.2 mg/l) and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30
Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/1979/00000029/00000004/art00011
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...reef-corals/AFB1CF4CB68823BD13AD254623FD3C7C#
An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals
Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1661
Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full
Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via=ihub
Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588
High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts
https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.w...98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq
https://therichross.com/skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-and-phosphate/
Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23303369
Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.13695
The same is true for nitrogen with particualate, organic anc inorganic forms which are being used by corals and algae. Additioanlly corals have diazotrophs or nitrogen fixing microbes in their holobiont.
If corals can't get enough phosphorus it creates a deficiency which seriously affects their photobiology which reduces the amount of food they're getting from thier zooxanthellae and affects their immune systems. One consequence is they are not able to compete with other algae as well which typically results in nuisance algae thriving even under low nutrient conditions. I would advise feeding your fish more.
I would recommend reading Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas".
And here's some more stuff :
"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks, I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs. It should therefore not come as a surprise that feeding corals in such systems becomes a very important component in these systems. Though reefs are often catagorized as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high when the total volume of water passing over a reef is taken into consideration.
Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path." Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127
"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus (.2 mg/l) and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30
Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/1979/00000029/00000004/art00011
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...reef-corals/AFB1CF4CB68823BD13AD254623FD3C7C#
An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals
Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1661
Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full
Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via=ihub
Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588
High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts
https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.w...98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq
https://therichross.com/skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-and-phosphate/
Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23303369
Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.13695
fullmonti
now is the time
It's very fine blonde hair type algae that has very long strands, up to 4-5" long left for a couple weeks. It's so fine and pale it does not show up in photos under aquarium blue light. Thought I might try back light with a strobe but just haven't done that yet.
About 15 years ago I had a 180 sps tank which looked great, after 3 years or so, I added a NPS 29 gallon tank to the system. I thought a 230-240 gallon system would handle the extra feeding. Long story short, bryopsis algae got started and back then it was just about impossible to get rid of. I fought it for a year and eventually changed the tank over to a planted Discus tank. I've had smaller reef tanks for about 8 years now and no algae problem Until now.
My blasto corals have had it the worst, all but one which is fine have receded and my not come back from this. sps corals are OK to good but some kinda pale. Most lps are doing well, lobo looks great, trachy, favia look good, some others mixed lps ok but could be better.
If this tank wasn't already stressed I don't think I would still try starving it out. With my old 180 sps tank with bryopsis, I took the NPS tank out of the system and stripped the nutrients down to the bare bone and manually removed algae for many months with no real effect. So I'm sure the "the algae is consuming the nutrients" thing is absolutely true and starving it out my be a good option some times. I pretty sure in this case it would be a very costly option for the corals. It seems these days there are other options, procedures and products to try. So that is what i'm going to try.
When I beat this and I will one way or another. I'll post what worked best. Until then thank you all for interest, help, input etc.
About 15 years ago I had a 180 sps tank which looked great, after 3 years or so, I added a NPS 29 gallon tank to the system. I thought a 230-240 gallon system would handle the extra feeding. Long story short, bryopsis algae got started and back then it was just about impossible to get rid of. I fought it for a year and eventually changed the tank over to a planted Discus tank. I've had smaller reef tanks for about 8 years now and no algae problem Until now.
My blasto corals have had it the worst, all but one which is fine have receded and my not come back from this. sps corals are OK to good but some kinda pale. Most lps are doing well, lobo looks great, trachy, favia look good, some others mixed lps ok but could be better.
If this tank wasn't already stressed I don't think I would still try starving it out. With my old 180 sps tank with bryopsis, I took the NPS tank out of the system and stripped the nutrients down to the bare bone and manually removed algae for many months with no real effect. So I'm sure the "the algae is consuming the nutrients" thing is absolutely true and starving it out my be a good option some times. I pretty sure in this case it would be a very costly option for the corals. It seems these days there are other options, procedures and products to try. So that is what i'm going to try.
When I beat this and I will one way or another. I'll post what worked best. Until then thank you all for interest, help, input etc.
RBU1
Moving on Up
Good luck. Hope it works for you. This hobby can be very frustrating at times.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
fullmonti
now is the time
Wow I posted my last post before I saw all that. I envy science type people who can read/wade through and absorb all the technical info out there. I am a dyslexic art type and YouTube has been a godsend for me. The only way I can learn this stuff is from talking with people and videos. The problem with learning this way is you have to sort through who really know what they are do/talking about and who just likes the sound of their own voice.
I have always loved ReefCental because there a knowledgable gracious people willing to take their time to help others.
I have always loved ReefCental because there a knowledgable gracious people willing to take their time to help others.
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