Alkalinity out of Control

Long Island Andy

Long Island Andy

Andy
Hi Randy

Well this is becoming a never ending story. I wrote a few months ago because I was having some strange numbers come from a calc reactor that I had purchsed used. I broke down and bought a new Kor 1501 which works. I have the affluent set at about 6.6 and that is with only a minimal amount of CO2.(15bpm) I drip a weak Kalk solution to keep the ph above 7.9. The situation that has occurred again is my alk is off the charts in the tank. It measures dkh of 19 which equates to 6.79 total alk. I do not see any problem with the fish or corals but this can't be good. My calcuim is right at about 440, and with the kalk drip the ph stays between 8--8.3. I am sure you are sick of these questions but after reading as much I could I am still not able to get this right. Any input as usual would be appreciated.

Thanks
Andy
 
Piggy backing

Piggy backing

I too have very odd numbers from a recent added Ca reactor. It has stabilized with the following

Main Tank:
pH 8.3-8.5
NO3,NO2, NH, PO4 undetectable
Ca 270
dKH 30 ?? way off the chart
Mg 1130
salinity 1.025

No major problems observed, although all of my Xenia melted down.

Ca reactor:
pH 6.8 effluent using ARM media
CO2 at alot of bubble per minute!!! When it was at 30-60 bpm, I could not keep the pH below 7.2.
PO4 negative
dKH 20+?? way off the chart

I am currently topping off with RO water with Alk of <2. The test kits are all new and accurate when compared to the LFS.

IDEAS TO LOWER THE ALK, I WANT TO INCREASE THE Ca, BUT YOU SEE MY PROBLEM.

Shawn
 
I'll assume that both of you are measuring alkalinity far from where the reactor effluent enters the system, so it is not artificially high.

Shawn:

In your case, you have very low calcium. I'd raise it with calcium chloride while using the reactor. Keep adding it (it will take a lot) until the calcium comes up to 400+ ppm. By this point, the alkalinity will be starting to drop. If it is still too high, keep on adding the CaCl2 until the alkalinity is where you want it.


Andy:

In your case, the calcium is OK, but the alk is too high. Here to I'd add CaCl2, but you won't need nearly as much. As you add CaCl2, the calcium may transiently be high, but it will drop as CaCO3 is formed, and the alkalinity will drop. It is possible that you are simply delivering too much calcium and alkalinity to the tank with that system, and you may need to back off on the reactor even more.
 
Randy,

I have read several threads citing high Alk as a supressent to Ca levels. Also a reputable LFS said this when I went in to get the CaCl2 before posting this.

Before adding the Ca reactor, the Ca was normally 350 and I was adding the reactor to bump it up. After the Alk increased the Ca dropped. The Alk was previously at 10-12 dKH.

Will simply adding CaCl2 drop the Alk or does it the Alk supress Ca levels when it is this high. If so, what is the preferred method drop Alk into an acceptable range before adding CaCl2.


Shawn
 
If the alkalinity is high, then adding calcium will cause the alkalinity to drop as some of the calcium will combine with some of the "alkalinity" to form calcium carbonate , either via calcification in corals and other organisms, or through abiotic precipitation around the tank. So add the CaCl2 now to drop the alkalinity.

If you start with 350 ppm calcium, and try to raise it with any balanced calcium/alkalinityadditive (like a reactor) to 410 ppm calcium, the alkalinity will run up an additional 3 meq/L (21 dKH). So if you have an imbalanced situation, you should not use a balanced additive to correct it.

Check out this article on balance:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.htm
 
Thanks Randy

You are probably right with the reactor putting too much of everything into the water. I turned the reactor off the last time the alk exploded and did massive water changes to get the numbers down. I did not realize that the reactor could increase the alk and leave the calcium stable. You know 3 years ago when I just dosed B-Ionic, my world was a lot simpler. Randy can I use the calcium part of B-Ionic to raise the calcium or would you suggest something like turbo calcium.

Thanks
Andy
 
Andy:

I did not realize that the reactor could increase the alk and leave the calcium stable.

It doesn't really leave it stable as much as the mathematics of the balanced addition put in 1 meq/L of alkalinity (7 dKH) for every 20 ppm rise in calcium. Most people think of +/- 20 ppm of calcium as being pretty stable, but +/- 7 dKH as being a big alkalinity change.

I use the calcium part of B-Ionic to raise the calcium or would you suggest something like turbo calcium.

For this situation, the use of one part of the B-ionic should be fine.
 
Habib:

How are you? I hope everything is fine.

I'm doing well. In fact, in three days I start a four month leave of absence from work to allow me to hang out with my family for the summer. Feet up. Watching the waves roll in from our lake house. My daughters splashing in the water. There's an old beer commercial in the US, that may not have made it there, that says "it doesn't get any better than this." That is what I am expecting the next four months to be like. :celeb2:

How are you doing? I haven't heard from you in quite some time!

I guess you mean 2.8 dKH instead of 7dKH.

Yes, of course. While the mathematics makes the alkalinity rise look like more than the calcium rise, it isn't that bad;)

I'd try to blame you for all of Europe's mistakes (like inventing a unit as stupid as dKH) but maybe only Germany is to blame:D
 
Randy,

Four months is really a long time. I really hope you will enjoy your vacation with your family and it will be just like the commercial :beer:

How are you doing? I haven't heard from you in quite some time!

I have been to busy with other things such as my son(3.5y) and daughter (soon to be 2y).

I went a few days ago to Compuserve and was a bit dissapointed. Fortunately I came there across your reference to a thread on alkalinity+borate test and discoverd this forum :) .

I sure think that I will be hanging around regularly on this forum.

maybe only Germany is to blame

Yes that's for sure.

I'd try to blame you for all of Europe's mistakes (like inventing a unit as stupid as dKH)

And units such as Kelvin, centimeter, milliliter, gram,.....:D

Again have a very nice time with your family.
 
I sure think that I will be hanging around regularly on this forum.

That's great!

I assume that you are still invovled with Salifert?
 
Randy,

I assume that you are still invovled with Salifert?

Yes, I still own the company.
So everybody has to be extra critical on what I will be saying:hammer:

By the way, will you still be active on this forum the coming months?
 
So everybody has to be extra critical on what I will be saying

A fresh perspective is always welcome, and I'm sure that once more of the forum regulars see your here, they'll at least hit you up for how-to's on your products:)

By the way, will you still be active on this forum the coming months?

Yes, my leave won't change my participation here.

I went a few days ago to Compuserve and was a bit dissapointed.

I agree. There is very little interesting discussion there anymore. To much competition from other sites, like reefcentral and reefs.org especially.
 
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