I have been trying to ask this question in the SPS forum due to a lack of response over here with my previous attempt. Please assist if possible.
Alkalinity?
I know this may not be the place for this thread, but I wasn't getting much help in the equipment forum. Since my SPS corals are suffering the most due to this fluctuation, I was hopeing someone here could help me before I lose anything else that is tempermental in my tank. Thanks.
I have read enormous amounts of info on this topic and still struggle with my 120 reef. I have been trying to dial in my calcium reactor for over almost two months now. My CA holds at 420. I have a Ph probe monitor that turns my CO2 bubbles on when the PH in the calcium reactor goes above 6.8. The PH in my tank is holding at 8.1 - 8.2. My alkalinity is always spiking. My coral does not do well with a alk of 8- 10. My coral seems to thrive around 11-12. The alkalinity continues to want to spike up to 14-15. I do a water change to bring it back down, and in two days it is back up. I read that to increase the alk., you simply slow the effluent going through the reactor. To decrease, you would increase the effluent. I currently have the effluent coming out as a solid just before it turns into a drip. I have measured the effluent coming out and it reads 18. I have also been told that the effluent should be two to three times what you want in the tank. This isn't working for me and I need to keep this from fluctuating. It's having a major impact on my corals. If someone understands this very well, please assist me in stabilizing this in my tank. Thanks.
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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CleveYank
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Ca reactors are meant to be used like a cruise control system on a car. Although they can decelerate and accelerate the vehicle. Their primary function is to maintain speed. Like in kind, you manually adjust your Ca and Alk levels with 2 part to get things exactly where you want them (at the speed you want). Then set the reactor to not swing or plumet pH and keep your Ca and Alk where you have set them with 2 part with some subtle or very light tweaking. But overall its a maintain mindset.
As far as your Alk problem. If you are not using dolomite for the main part of your reactor media then it must be something else.
I'd bet you're running way too much effluent through the reactor. A 120, unless you have a 300 gallon sump or 20+ corals the size of basketballs should only be in the 50 to 80 drips per minute starting range. If you are running just shy of a stream I'd think you are running way too much flow through the reactor. Your pH is good so your bubble count is probably ok.
I'd also double check the probe's calibration...but again pH is not in the cellar so it's probably ok.
I wouldn't get too torn onto what the effluent's Alk is.
The system end value is what you're concerned with.
Natural Seawater Alk is around 7 BTW.
If it were me I'd back things off and let the alk slowly pull down to 11 on it's own if that's where you want it. Then I'd start over. Think baby steps.
And I'd knock it off with the water changes until you can get things truly stable. You're just adding more sudden changes.
__________________
This is how I tested, documented and proved my results for in tank total planaria eradication. See Reefcentral Thread ID 1379099
My offering of freeware to the reef keeping hobby.
Hobby Experience: marching towards 25 years in the hobby
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Zeus2
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Registered: Jan 2009
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I'll gladly stop the water changes. It was becoming very irritating. What doesn't make since to me is this: Since I have a PH monitor for the calcium reactor which is kept at 6.8 (This continues to hold CA at 420) the bubble counter is not consistantly on. Turning on only to keep the reactor at 6.8. I read in order to decrease alk., you must increase the effluent going through the reactor and to increase it, you slow your effluent through the reactor. Yesturday, I had increase the effluent by an extremely small adjustment and the alk. appears to slowly be coming down. My concern now is, that by increasing the effluent through the reactor it will affect the overall PH of my tank. Should I expect this to happen or should the tank PH hold. I know there are alot of questions in this paragraph, but as you can see I need the advise. Thankyou
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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jdieck
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Re: Alkalinity?
quote:Originally posted by Zeus2
I have read enormous amounts of info on this topic and still struggle with my 120 reef. I have been trying to dial in my calcium reactor for over almost two months now. My CA holds at 420. I have a Ph probe monitor that turns my CO2 bubbles on when the PH in the calcium reactor goes above 6.8. The PH in my tank is holding at 8.1 - 8.2. My alkalinity is always spiking. My coral does not do well with a alk of 8- 10. My coral seems to thrive around 11-12. The alkalinity continues to want to spike up to 14-15. I do a water change to bring it back down, and in two days it is back up.
That is a sign that you are adding too much alkalinity with the reactor. Adjust the reactor so the alkalinity in the tank stay the same testing in between one or two days. Once the alkalinity is the same (no drop no spike) then manually use some baking soda to adjust it to the level you want and the reactor will keep it there as it is already adjusted to only replace the consumption.
I read that to increase the alk., you simply slow the effluent going through the reactor. To decrease, you would increase the effluent.
You have it backwards!. Although, when not using a controller decreasing the effluent will increase it's alkalinity content because of the PH drop, when using a conroller, the PH stay the same and the overal alkalinity addition in the tank is reduced by reducing the effluent. In other words if you are trying to reduce the alkalinity addition by increasing the effluent you are doing the oposite! more effluent = more alkalinity added.
I currently have the effluent coming out as a solid just before it turns into a drip. I have measured the effluent coming out and it reads 18. I have also been told that the effluent should be two to three times what you want in the tank.
That is not true. As far as the alkalinity in the effluent is higher than the alkalinity in the tank then you are adding alkalinity to the tank.
The amount of alkalinity added depends not only on the alkalinity contained in the effluent but the total amount of effluent added.
If your tank alkalinity is 10 dKh, then 40 ml/minute of effluent containing 20 dKh (10 above the tank) will add the same alkalinity than 20 ml/min containing 30 dKh (1/2 the amount of 20 above the tank) containing.
So adjust your effluent so the alkalinity in the tank does not change and again do not try to increase or lower it with the reactor or it will never stabilize.
If your effluent needs to be too high then you can increase the amount of alkalinity in the effluent (so you can lower the flow) by further reducing the PH in the reactor by re-setting the controller for a lower PH.
__________________
Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind.
Hobby Experience: One year experience eight times or enough to keep'em alive.. Sometimes
Current Tanks: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium
Interests: More than I can support
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Zeus2
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Registered: Jan 2009
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Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
That was a perfect response for me. Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I'll post in a few days how this works out.
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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Zeus2
Registered Member
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
Here is the website that I learned how to increase and decrease alk.
http://www.melevsreef.com/calcium_reactor.html
Things to keep in mind
* ARM dissolves at a pH of 6.5, while other products such as Schuran media needs to reach 6.2 before it will dissolve.
* To increase alkalinity in the effluent, either slow the effluent rate even more, or increase bubbles per minute.
* To decrease alkalinity in the effluent, allow more effluent to exit, or decrease bubbles per minute.
* Any changes or adjustments you make should be tiny ones. Test your tank the next day to see how the parameters are currently. Try not to overreact. You can fine tune the system gradually over several days or even weeks.
* It is very important to check the effluent tubing daily to make sure it is dripping or flowing at the normal rate. It can clog up, and if water cannot exit, the pH can potentially drop within the reactor to the point of causing all the media to melt down at once. Check the bubble counter as well.
* Clean the pH probe if you use a controller, and calibrate it every six months.
* Every six months, clean the reactor out well, clean the feed and circulation pumps and the tubing. Replace the media.
* Have an extra tank of CO2 ready, so when you run out you'll be able to swap tanks out immediately. Refill the empty tank at your convenience.
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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Zeus2
Registered Member
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
Which way is the correct way to increase or decrease alk.
This isn't meant to offend you jdieck. I appreciate your time. I didn't want you to think that I haven't been doing my homework on this.
Alkalinity?
I know this may not be the place for this thread, but I wasn't getting much help in the equipment forum. Since my SPS corals are suffering the most due to this fluctuation, I was hopeing someone here could help me before I lose anything else that is tempermental in my tank. Thanks.
I have read enormous amounts of info on this topic and still struggle with my 120 reef. I have been trying to dial in my calcium reactor for over almost two months now. My CA holds at 420. I have a Ph probe monitor that turns my CO2 bubbles on when the PH in the calcium reactor goes above 6.8. The PH in my tank is holding at 8.1 - 8.2. My alkalinity is always spiking. My coral does not do well with a alk of 8- 10. My coral seems to thrive around 11-12. The alkalinity continues to want to spike up to 14-15. I do a water change to bring it back down, and in two days it is back up. I read that to increase the alk., you simply slow the effluent going through the reactor. To decrease, you would increase the effluent. I currently have the effluent coming out as a solid just before it turns into a drip. I have measured the effluent coming out and it reads 18. I have also been told that the effluent should be two to three times what you want in the tank. This isn't working for me and I need to keep this from fluctuating. It's having a major impact on my corals. If someone understands this very well, please assist me in stabilizing this in my tank. Thanks.
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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New Post 05/02/2009 12:02 AM
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CleveYank
20 Years in Reefkeeping
Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Occupation:
Posts: 1948
Ca reactors are meant to be used like a cruise control system on a car. Although they can decelerate and accelerate the vehicle. Their primary function is to maintain speed. Like in kind, you manually adjust your Ca and Alk levels with 2 part to get things exactly where you want them (at the speed you want). Then set the reactor to not swing or plumet pH and keep your Ca and Alk where you have set them with 2 part with some subtle or very light tweaking. But overall its a maintain mindset.
As far as your Alk problem. If you are not using dolomite for the main part of your reactor media then it must be something else.
I'd bet you're running way too much effluent through the reactor. A 120, unless you have a 300 gallon sump or 20+ corals the size of basketballs should only be in the 50 to 80 drips per minute starting range. If you are running just shy of a stream I'd think you are running way too much flow through the reactor. Your pH is good so your bubble count is probably ok.
I'd also double check the probe's calibration...but again pH is not in the cellar so it's probably ok.
I wouldn't get too torn onto what the effluent's Alk is.
The system end value is what you're concerned with.
Natural Seawater Alk is around 7 BTW.
If it were me I'd back things off and let the alk slowly pull down to 11 on it's own if that's where you want it. Then I'd start over. Think baby steps.
And I'd knock it off with the water changes until you can get things truly stable. You're just adding more sudden changes.
__________________
This is how I tested, documented and proved my results for in tank total planaria eradication. See Reefcentral Thread ID 1379099
My offering of freeware to the reef keeping hobby.
Hobby Experience: marching towards 25 years in the hobby
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New Post 05/02/2009 03:16 AM
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Zeus2
Registered Member
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
I'll gladly stop the water changes. It was becoming very irritating. What doesn't make since to me is this: Since I have a PH monitor for the calcium reactor which is kept at 6.8 (This continues to hold CA at 420) the bubble counter is not consistantly on. Turning on only to keep the reactor at 6.8. I read in order to decrease alk., you must increase the effluent going through the reactor and to increase it, you slow your effluent through the reactor. Yesturday, I had increase the effluent by an extremely small adjustment and the alk. appears to slowly be coming down. My concern now is, that by increasing the effluent through the reactor it will affect the overall PH of my tank. Should I expect this to happen or should the tank PH hold. I know there are alot of questions in this paragraph, but as you can see I need the advise. Thankyou
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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New Post 05/02/2009 03:34 AM
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jdieck
smooth top
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Naperville IL
Occupation: Dipping my doughnut in someone else's coffee
Posts: 15266
Re: Alkalinity?
quote:Originally posted by Zeus2
I have read enormous amounts of info on this topic and still struggle with my 120 reef. I have been trying to dial in my calcium reactor for over almost two months now. My CA holds at 420. I have a Ph probe monitor that turns my CO2 bubbles on when the PH in the calcium reactor goes above 6.8. The PH in my tank is holding at 8.1 - 8.2. My alkalinity is always spiking. My coral does not do well with a alk of 8- 10. My coral seems to thrive around 11-12. The alkalinity continues to want to spike up to 14-15. I do a water change to bring it back down, and in two days it is back up.
That is a sign that you are adding too much alkalinity with the reactor. Adjust the reactor so the alkalinity in the tank stay the same testing in between one or two days. Once the alkalinity is the same (no drop no spike) then manually use some baking soda to adjust it to the level you want and the reactor will keep it there as it is already adjusted to only replace the consumption.
I read that to increase the alk., you simply slow the effluent going through the reactor. To decrease, you would increase the effluent.
You have it backwards!. Although, when not using a controller decreasing the effluent will increase it's alkalinity content because of the PH drop, when using a conroller, the PH stay the same and the overal alkalinity addition in the tank is reduced by reducing the effluent. In other words if you are trying to reduce the alkalinity addition by increasing the effluent you are doing the oposite! more effluent = more alkalinity added.
I currently have the effluent coming out as a solid just before it turns into a drip. I have measured the effluent coming out and it reads 18. I have also been told that the effluent should be two to three times what you want in the tank.
That is not true. As far as the alkalinity in the effluent is higher than the alkalinity in the tank then you are adding alkalinity to the tank.
The amount of alkalinity added depends not only on the alkalinity contained in the effluent but the total amount of effluent added.
If your tank alkalinity is 10 dKh, then 40 ml/minute of effluent containing 20 dKh (10 above the tank) will add the same alkalinity than 20 ml/min containing 30 dKh (1/2 the amount of 20 above the tank) containing.
So adjust your effluent so the alkalinity in the tank does not change and again do not try to increase or lower it with the reactor or it will never stabilize.
If your effluent needs to be too high then you can increase the amount of alkalinity in the effluent (so you can lower the flow) by further reducing the PH in the reactor by re-setting the controller for a lower PH.
__________________
Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind.
Hobby Experience: One year experience eight times or enough to keep'em alive.. Sometimes
Current Tanks: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium
Interests: More than I can support
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New Post 05/02/2009 04:12 AM
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Zeus2
Registered Member
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
That was a perfect response for me. Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I'll post in a few days how this works out.
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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New Post 05/02/2009 04:33 AM
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Zeus2
Registered Member
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
Here is the website that I learned how to increase and decrease alk.
http://www.melevsreef.com/calcium_reactor.html
Things to keep in mind
* ARM dissolves at a pH of 6.5, while other products such as Schuran media needs to reach 6.2 before it will dissolve.
* To increase alkalinity in the effluent, either slow the effluent rate even more, or increase bubbles per minute.
* To decrease alkalinity in the effluent, allow more effluent to exit, or decrease bubbles per minute.
* Any changes or adjustments you make should be tiny ones. Test your tank the next day to see how the parameters are currently. Try not to overreact. You can fine tune the system gradually over several days or even weeks.
* It is very important to check the effluent tubing daily to make sure it is dripping or flowing at the normal rate. It can clog up, and if water cannot exit, the pH can potentially drop within the reactor to the point of causing all the media to melt down at once. Check the bubble counter as well.
* Clean the pH probe if you use a controller, and calibrate it every six months.
* Every six months, clean the reactor out well, clean the feed and circulation pumps and the tubing. Replace the media.
* Have an extra tank of CO2 ready, so when you run out you'll be able to swap tanks out immediately. Refill the empty tank at your convenience.
Hobby Experience: 2 yrs. Reef Tank
Current Tanks: 120 gal. Reef
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New Post 05/02/2009 04:37 AM
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Zeus2
Registered Member
Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Occupation: fireman
Posts: 269
Which way is the correct way to increase or decrease alk.
This isn't meant to offend you jdieck. I appreciate your time. I didn't want you to think that I haven't been doing my homework on this.
