All of a sudden, no polyp extension?

[denash24]

My advice comes a bit late for you but I would say stray voltage even in small amounts will affect SPS, also if you're using any food clips or pumps with magnets, definitely inspect them for rust. Then lastly don't make any major changes, unfortunately the best thing to do if you can't pinpoint out the problem is too let it be and ride it out, continue doing your normal routine. Remember stability is key for SPS

 

[Esper]

You need to do larger water changes than 10% weekly.

Read Randy's article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#4

Randy Holmes-Farley
Clearly, larger water changes are much more effective than smaller changes for a fixed number of such changes.

Whatever your problem is, large water changes with good water will help...at least temporarily. If you have a buildup of something or a depletion of something, at least you will fix that problem. Return to baseline when it comes to water quality. The parameters you are testing for look fine, so it must be something you aren't testing for. It may be something you cannot test. Just do a massive water change to rule this variable out.

It also sounds like you have a lot of different coral species in a small tank. Do you run carbon? You may want to get rid of everything that isn't SPS to minimize chemical warfare between different corals.

A picture would REALLY help. Show us your whole setup. You never know what someone will spot.

 

[Scorpius]

Sorry if this sounds argumentative, that's not what I'm trying to do

My tank had SPS in it literally weeks after my cycle, all were/are thriving. And I am far from a seasoned reefer -- Check my joined forum date -- that was the last time I kept a SW tank, and back then I was literally using lunch money.

To top it off, my tank is a 29g Biocube -- Things move QUICK in a small tank like this. And as a reefer with zero experience in SPS, in the most unstable circumstances, learning the whole way, in a brand new system. I had SPS growing and coloring up.. And I did everything wrong and still haven't learned all my lessons yet.

The understanding of reefs, husbandry, and water chemistry has evolved *so* much since I was a kid. 10 years ago what you are saying was sage advice -- Today it's a bit of an old wives tale. The technology and understanding is there, you just got to investigate. The only thing I have had die on me are Zoa's. I've had two beautiful mini colonies growing like crazy then suddenly they just shrank away. Of course they were the Gold Mauls and Blue Rhino's, not the BBEB/BamBams -_-

It took *me* about a year to learn what I was doing properly, but through all my mistakes the SPS kept encrusting, growing, and coloring up. Things that I did absolutely put temporary halts on growth, messed up colors, etc etc. But none of that was due to the tank lacking maturity.

Whelp. Keeping trying to grow sps in a young tank then. You're going to lose a lot of money in the process until your tank matures and stabilizes. Been there and done that myself. It sucks.

 

[Rakie]

Whelp. Keeping trying to grow sps in a young tank then.

My tank is now a year old, it's had no problems since cycle to today.

You're going to lose a lot of money in the process until your tank matures and stabilizes.

Between last year and now I've lost zero SPS. All are growing and have been from tiny frags.

I feel where you're coming from, but as a novice with zero experience whose screwed up the whole way down the path -- Nothing you said was true.

I honestly don't know how people kill SPS. I've done everything to them, they just keep growing. High light, low light, light burn, alk drop, alk spike, salinity spike and drop, dropped the corals, sudden temp change, sudden Temp+Alk+Salinity change, Starved 'em, overfed the tank, etc etc.

They refuse to die. Even my wild aussie acro's won't die. The technology is readily available and fairly priced -- All I learned I learned from RC.

 

[Potatohead]

You need to do larger water changes than 10% weekly.

Read Randy's article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#4



Whatever your problem is, large water changes with good water will help...at least temporarily. If you have a buildup of something or a depletion of something, at least you will fix that problem. Return to baseline when it comes to water quality. The parameters you are testing for look fine, so it must be something you aren't testing for. It may be something you cannot test. Just do a massive water change to rule this variable out.

It also sounds like you have a lot of different coral species in a small tank. Do you run carbon? You may want to get rid of everything that isn't SPS to minimize chemical warfare between different corals.

A picture would REALLY help. Show us your whole setup. You never know what someone will spot.

Yes I run carbon, I have since I added any livestock. I have about eight SPS frags remaining ranging from doing ok to still growing. Oddly, four are millepora... Along with a setosa, a pink lemonade, a caroliniana, and another unnamed acro. I had maybe fifteen in there spaced 4-5" apart about a month ago.

I have checked my pumps and they are fine, and they're no older than the tank so I wouldn't expect a problem there but I checked anyway. I have a temp probe and it's ok too. I truly am at a loss and am just going to leave it as is, let it run and see how things go. I don't mind the suggestion of doing more water changes, I'll probably try it but I'm doubtful it will do much. Let's hope I guess.

My tank is now a year old, it's had no problems since cycle to today.



Between last year and now I've lost zero SPS. All are growing and have been from tiny frags.

I feel where you're coming from, but as a novice with zero experience whose screwed up the whole way down the path -- Nothing you said was true.

I honestly don't know how people kill SPS. I've done everything to them, they just keep growing. High light, low light, light burn, alk drop, alk spike, salinity spike and drop, dropped the corals, sudden temp change, sudden Temp+Alk+Salinity change, Starved 'em, overfed the tank, etc etc.

They refuse to die. Even my wild aussie acro's won't die. The technology is readily available and fairly priced -- All I learned I learned from RC.

Take it elsewhere please. You're clearly more awesome than any other SPS keeper ever and I'd like to continue the great discussion and help that is occurring in this thread without my toes being stomped on. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

 

[Rakie]

Take it elsewhere please. You're clearly more awesome than any other SPS keeper ever and I'd like to continue the great discussion and help that is occurring in this thread without my toes being stomped on. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

I'm not sure why you're giving me attitude -- I'm arguing against the guy giving crap advise, on your behalf, because he's telling you there's nothing you can do, and I'm saying he's wrong -- that you can succeed without issue.

Think about all those people who upgrade their tanks -- Many, many people upgrade tanks and take their corals and mount them on brand new rocks, in brand new tanks, just after cycle is complete. Nobody sets up a new tank and gives it 1-2 years to mature before transferring their livestock over.

I guess if you want that guy whose telling you to give up and quit to stay and help, then I sincerely apologize for trying to stand up for you, and help point out that what he said was inaccurate, and not helpful.

Here's his advice, in case you missed it.

4.5 month old tank is wayyyyy to early for any sps unless you are a seasoned sps reefer. Sps I have learned like a mature stable tank. Wait one year before trying sps. Been there done that.

Whelp. Keeping trying to grow sps in a young tank then. You're going to lose a lot of money in the process until your tank matures and stabilizes. Been there and done that myself. It sucks.

 

[Potatohead]

I'm not sure why you're giving me attitude

Really?

All advice from anybody aside, you stated this;

I honestly don't know how people kill SPS. I've done everything to them, they just keep growing. High light, low light, light burn, alk drop, alk spike, salinity spike and drop, dropped the corals, sudden temp change, sudden Temp+Alk+Salinity change, Starved 'em, overfed the tank, etc etc.

They refuse to die. Even my wild aussie acro's won't die. The technology is readily available and fairly priced -- All I learned I learned from RC.

So forgive me for believing that is a dig. I have read and researched countless hours into to this before I even started, just as you have. I am not new to fish keeping, not by a long shot, but am new to reefing. There are people on both sides of the fence when it comes to whether or not a new tank can sustain SPS, and I'm not going to call anyone an idiot or say they're giving bad advice for feeling the opposite I do. When I started out I felt firmly in your camp after doing many hours of research. However knowing myself and knowing I don't mess around and tend to do things I set my mind to well, I'm really struggling with what has happened here and simply trying to come to a conclusion about what happened... So I want to hear all sides. You're right in that there are many examples of SPS tanks taking off right away, but there are also many the opposite, and I can't believe it's all bad husbandry.


Anyway...

I took some pics while doing a water change tonight. They're just potato pics so nothing awesome. The only thing in the tank seemingly still maybe dying is the burgundy encrusting monti, algae started growing on it a few days ago and it has little polyp extension. In the last pic the green mille has only been in the tank a few weeks, and the pink one behind it for 2-3 months and has probably grown at least 50% larger.

 

[Marq]

Really?

All advice from anybody aside, you stated this;



So forgive me for believing that is a dig. I have read and researched countless hours into to this before I even started, just as you have. I am not new to fish keeping, not by a long shot, but am new to reefing. There are people on both sides of the fence when it comes to whether or not a new tank can sustain SPS, and I'm not going to call anyone an idiot or say they're giving bad advice for feeling the opposite I do. When I started out I felt firmly in your camp after doing many hours of research. However knowing myself and knowing I don't mess around and tend to do things I set my mind to well, I'm really struggling with what has happened here and simply trying to come to a conclusion about what happened... So I want to hear all sides. You're right in that there are many examples of SPS tanks taking off right away, but there are also many the opposite, and I can't believe it's all bad husbandry.


Anyway...

I took some pics while doing a water change tonight. They're just potato pics so nothing awesome. The only thing in the tank seemingly still maybe dying is the burgundy encrusting monti, algae started growing on it a few days ago and it has little polyp extension. In the last pic the green mille has only been in the tank a few weeks, and the pink one behind it for 2-3 months and has probably grown at least 50% larger.

I think that a lot of time things can just go downhill in a reef tank and it's related to something we just can't test for or a process that we do not understand well. But I think that general consensus when it comes to reef keeping is that a mature tank gives you the best chance for growing coral.

Just because someone is able to grow SPS in their tank after 3 months does not mean that everyone can do it. This is the exception rather than the rule. There is always going to be exceptions to all rules. If someone say that you should wait a year for your tank to mature to try acroporas, someone from Missouri is going to post that he did it in only 4 weeks. You can try growing SPS in a 4 week old tank but you will likely be throwing money away.

When all else seem to fail, try just giving your tank time to really mature and keep up with great husbandry.

 

[vinhle00]

The rocks looks really new and the tank seems to be going through early stages of algae. Theres no coralline algae growth at all, while some corals don't mind other more finicky ones will have problems. I'm going to just lean towards the tank is just not matured.

 

[vinhle00]

"Think about all those people who upgrade their tanks -- Many, many people upgrade tanks and take their corals and mount them on brand new rocks, in brand new tanks, just after cycle is complete. Nobody sets up a new tank and gives it 1-2 years to mature before transferring their livestock over."

It's true that some people have success in survivability when doing a tank transfer but if you ever look closely after a transfer the corals were all either browned out or about to rtn. After the transfer it would take months for colors to come back and not all of them report loses here and there while the corals recovers.

 

[Potatohead]

There is some purple coralline starting but it is really slow. There has been some green on the rocks for a while that is hard and won't wipe off, I think that's coralline also but maybe not the good kind. The last pic I posted you can see some purple in the top left of the pic. I noticed yesterday a couple more are starting to stn. The green one I recently added just before this all happened however seems to be doing well and still with good polyp extension so I believe/hope the bad ones are just being affected from something that happened a while back or some type of swing that occurred. I have noticed in the last couple months a big rise in both sponges and spirorbid worms, but then their numbers really went back down, I now have maybe 1/3 of the peak number. Also the algae that I complained about earlier in the thread on the back glass is almost gone I'm sure because of my lighting intensity, but I don't really know if these would cause swings that could affect coral. I also had a ton of baby stomatella snails at one point but I haven't looked at night in a while, but I bet a bunch of those died off too. I guess that's the mystery of new tank syndrome.

Thanks again for the help and I will report back in a few weeks. My canary is the green mille, if something starts to happen with that I believe I can be pretty sure I have something in the water or some other oddity going on.

 

[Potatohead]

So it has been about seven weeks since my last post... I'm trying to be patient, but this is frustrating stuff.

I haven't really lost anything else since then, but other than a zoa colony and some acans, nothing is really doing anything, it just exists or very, very slowly recedes. None of my acros have any polyp extension except one and it's minimal. I have inspected until I am cross eyed and can't find any bugs. I did start to get some stn on my setosa, but I'm pretty sure it was from switching GFO brands and pulling some phosphate too quickly. I used to clean the glass every 3-4 days and now I can go like 10 days no problem, maybe more. A couple months ago I took out a green monti cap, I didn't realize at the time about a dime sized chunk was left behind, and that has recently in the last couple weeks started to take off... So go figure.

I run my LED's only at 35% for six hours with a two hour ramp on each end making ten hours total. I run the T5's right now at 4.25 hours and raising about five to ten minutes every week or two, I imagine I'll stop around 5 hours but depends on how the corals react.

The tank has now been cycled and running with fish and some corals for six months. I still have just a dozen or so small spots of corraline on the rocks (none on glass or powerheads or anything) and pretty much no other algae. I have been trying to feed a bit more because based on how clean my glass and rock stays maybe the water is too clean... Every time I broadcast feed though I seem to get an explosion of spirorbid worms, don't really know if that's something to be concerned about.

So I don't know, it just is. I'll give it another while, maybe six months or something but I'm not real optimistic at this point. It's like something happened about three months ago and everything just took a dive. I have been racking my brain but cannot remember anything out of the ordinary.

 

[bobssecrtsn]

One quick question that I want to know. Did you double check your n03 readings with another kit? what kit are you using?


I ask because I literally read 23 pages of people dosing kn03 ( spectacide stump remover ) and majority of people have the same symptoms as you. first 2-3 weeks explode with growth and color ( usually its because the coral is using up their zoo.) and after that they start going downhill.

double check your nitrate reading with a good brand kit!

 

[Potatohead]

One quick question that I want to know. Did you double check your n03 readings with another kit? what kit are you using?


I ask because I literally read 23 pages of people dosing kn03 ( spectacide stump remover ) and majority of people have the same symptoms as you. first 2-3 weeks explode with growth and color ( usually its because the coral is using up their zoo.) and after that they start going downhill.

double check your nitrate reading with a good brand kit!

Hi Bob

I originally had a (couple year old) Seachem kit and it was saying 3-5, I got a Nyos and it said more like ten. Now after using Nopox for a while, it is saying three. I'll probably get Salifert next because that's what is easiest to find here to compare, but I don't expect anything it or the ordinary. I wish/hope it's something that easy.

 

[Potatohead]

Went and got a couple test kits today, Salifert nitrate reads the same as my Nyos with a level right around five. I also got a Potassium kit which I have never tested for before, and got in the 360-370 range. I guess that's a touch low but not enough to affect much?

 

[Scorpius]

Went and got a couple test kits today, Salifert nitrate reads the same as my Nyos with a level right around five. I also got a Potassium kit which I have never tested for before, and got in the 360-370 range. I guess that's a touch low but not enough to affect much?

I've never had issues with potassium being 360-370 on my system. Acropora grow just fine.

 

[Esper]

You have brown diatoms all over your sand, which tells me the tank is either new (which you say it isn't), or the tank is having massive nutrient swings. Diatoms occur very early in the nitrogen cycle. They should disappear largely on its own as the tank ages.

Then you get the green hair/turf algae phase. It will get pretty intense, but with regular feeding and water changes (and some manual removal) the hair algae will disappear on it's own. Then you get coralline. When the coralline explodes, that's when you know the tank is "matured" and you can add SPS.

Have you had the hair/turf algae phase yet? When did that go away?

I've broken this rule and kept acropora just fine throughout these phases, but they did not grow quickly until the coralline stage.

 

[Mrtakeoff53]

Went and got a couple test kits today, Salifert nitrate reads the same as my Nyos with a level right around five. I also got a Potassium kit which I have never tested for before, and got in the 360-370 range. I guess that's a touch low but not enough to affect much?

Potatohead,

How's your tank end up fairing? I'm in a similar boat as you right now. Almost the same set-up. I have SPS but no acros. I was researching what to do and was wondering how your tank turned out?

 

[Oldreeferman]

From the pics you presented i have to agree with Esper on all counts. I see diatoms as swell. A reef aquarium may test ok AFTER the initial nitrifying cycle but its far from done maturing & stabilizing, only time does that. When you see Coralline overtaking all the rocks and out competing the algae & growing on the glass................... its matured. Corals love growing on Coralline... especially the encrusting ones. At this point the less you change anything the better (it just resets the clock) just let time age the tank. Testing the tank to death will get you no where on a new tank other then empty pockets if your RO is clean & your using reef saltmix that will have everything you need since your bio load is low.