allelopathy effecting my zoas? please help me!

Jonviviano

New member
Is this possible? i have a kenya in my 8 gal biocube and about 2 weeks ago all of my zoas started closing up. I cannot relate this to anything else. water params are perfect aside from KH which was 5-6. EVERYTHING else in my tank is thriving, frogspawn, blasto, goniopora, mushrooms....but only my zoas are affected. i do not see and critters running around on my polyps. i had a problem with brown algae growing on some zoas so i did an iodine dip on what i could. i believe its cyano because its on my sand as well and hopefully not a fungus. I also run carbon and a small skimmer. The skimmer only seems to pull alot of skimmage after a water change. nothing ever dark brown, only light green. Can anyone point me in the right direction? im feeling defeated. i would feel terrible if i lost all my beautifyl zoas because they where the highlight of my tank at one point. Thanks again for any input.
 
It's possible. It's also possible that something else is effecting your zoo's. I would change out the carbon, and do a large water change, then see how they respond.
 
I think you may be on the right track. Everything you have in there is at war with everything else. As mentioned above - a largeish waterchange and plenty of fresh carbon would be the first steps.
 
Thanks for your responses. within the last month 3-4 1 gallon water changes where preformed on the tank as well as new carbon added. which coral would you guys recommend removing first?
 
One gallon water changes aren't going to do much if you're dealing with allelopathy. After a one gallon water change, 7/8 of the offensive substance is still in the tank. Then a week goes by, the allelopathic substances build up, and you remove another 1/8 of them. You're not getting ahead.
 
I agree. I was into planted tanks at one time, and that was a big think. I did read on some site while at work friday that kenya trees are notorious for allelopathy. Usually more towards SPS and LPS, but could affect your zoas in a small tank. I think my who kenyas took two heads of my hammer and my leather. Everything else was perfect.

I would do at least half the water and add the carbon same day. MHO

Clay
 
Thanks for everyone's responses. Here's what I have done. 2.5 gallon water change followed by a generous amount of activated carbon. Next I removed my toadstool and Kenya to my 5.5. They can Duke it out there for now. My zoas have responded well ( knock on wood) but no change with the palys. Cyano has seemed to calm down and I have been raising my alkalinity. Hope the palys start to open because I recently added a long sought after frag of pink palys
 
Both Kenya trees and toadstools emit a lot of chemicals. I have learned that the trees are more aggressive than brown palys and have used them to clear infested areas of brown palys, since it is easier to rip the tree coral off the rock when the job is done. Kenya tree would therefore affect your zoas, especially in a nano.
 
I haven't tried it. Coral warfare is just a messed up version of rock, paper, scissors. You'd know quickly - if the yellow's sting is greater than the tree's chems, the tree won't open. The Kenya tree will take a little longer to wipe out the polyps and you may have to keep moving it to keep them in physical contact.
 
As far as has ever been shown, no coral releases large amounts of any chemical into the water. This would be extremely energy intensive and ineffective in the ocean with large amounts of water turnover. Some corals, and especially their mucus associated bacteria do produce chemical to keep other organisms from fouling their surfaces and growing over them. In a small, closed system, this may occasionally cause issues, but carbon and good flow should be more than sufficient to remove this. People pack the heck out of their tanks without issue. There are much more likely scenarios, such as predation or disease. IMHO, your looking at the least likely first.

Have you been here?
http://zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=384
 
m - have you never heard of allelopathy? It serves not only to deter predators, but also to inhibit neighboring coral's growth and the strategy works very well even in the wild... I have witnessed sarcophyton, lobophyton and capnella have immediate and profound effects on corals in a tank. It works as a survival strategy for the corals in the wild. Put them in a box with recirculating water and the effect amplifies. Carbon and flow do help, but if the water is just recirculating around the same corals, animals that are sensitive to others in the same system will suffer.
 
m - have you never heard of allelopathy? It serves not only to deter predators, but also to inhibit neighboring coral's growth and the strategy works very well even in the wild... I have witnessed sarcophyton, lobophyton and capnella have immediate and profound effects on corals in a tank. It works as a survival strategy for the corals in the wild. Put them in a box with recirculating water and the effect amplifies. Carbon and flow do help, but if the water is just recirculating around the same corals, animals that are sensitive to others in the same system will suffer.

LOL, I think you should re-read my post; I've certainly heard of allelopathy. There is no evidence, or logical reason to assume it happens as your suggesting in nature though. It would take a prohibitive amount of energy to produce toxins, in large enough quantities, that they could effect a neighboring corals through the water. Especially in an huge ocean with vast water movement and dispersion. If you're a coral, it is much more energetically efficient to wait and sting the coral with your nematocysts or just digest them when it is in close proximity. This does happen.

Also, what happens, is corals and especially their surface associated microbes, produce alleopathic chemicals to keep from being eaten, and to deter other organism from growing over them. I have read a lot on this subject, and other than one flawed, amateur study, by Eric Borneman, there is no evidence any of these are readily released into the water. I haven't heard a Marine Biologist suggest so in a few decades and the ones that did I don't hear from anymore. A few showed some coral associated chemicals could potentially be toxic, but never showed any further evidence of this mechanism being used. The evidence is that these chemicals are surface associated, meaning that they are contained in or around the corals mucus membrane. If the coral sheds it's mucus, or dies this may have an effect on other corals, especially in a closed system though.

Sacrophytons are a good example. They regularly shed mucus to eliminate surface fouling organisms and contaminants. Corals will also shed mucus when they need nutrients. It has been shown for example that some corals, when light deprived, will shed more organic carbon, in the form of mucus then corals under intense lighting. The idea is apparently that they need extra energy, so, they shed some of the energy source provided by their zoox, as this drives bacterial growth, which they can then consume to gain more energy. The organic carbon even could effect neighboring corals, in a closed system, as it can drive pathogenic bacteria as well. And certainly if a coral is dying, it will release all sorts of nasties.

So, I'm not saying that what you are suggesting can't happen, I am saying that will good flow and filtration it is unlikely to happen. Organic carbon and organic toxins should be removed readily by GAC and protein skimming. With good flow, they should not linger around other corals for significant amounts of time. The chemicals are not specific to corals, and often seem to be more anti-biotic in nature. So, the effect on corals seems to be limited to begin with. In a well filtered aquarium, it's been shown time and time again that corals can be kept in dense populations, in close proximity without significant ill effect.

In my experience, when people think this is happening, and look very hard, they usually find that there was something else. So, IMO, it is better to rule out predators, disease, stray voltage, contaminants etc.. before jumping to the "chemical warfare" conclusion. Unfortunately the term has become so common in the hobby, people seem to often overlook the actual disease, pathogen or predator responsible in favor of the buzz words "chemical warefare". I think occasionally another coral is to blame due to indirect alleopathy, but more often than not, there are other things going on. Anyways, it won't hurt to keep looking ;)
 
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