Alternatives for Refugium Mud

[reefs4lifee]

Does anyone know of any affordable alternatives for refugium mud? I need a decent amount for a project I have in mind but I really don't look forward to spending $100-150 for just 4-5 gallons of mud which is really just dirt to me. Anyways, if anybody knows of anything safe to use that is used in other areas of life, i.e. special plant soil or such (just like play sand used to be used in reefs) Please let me know here so everyone else can save themselves some cash too lol

 

[Annie3410]

i used clay-based kitty litter. The really cheap red and brown cardboard bag from walmart. No problems after 2.5 yrs. I have about 3" of clay kitty litter topped with an inch of sand in my fugue.

 

[Plantbrain]

Rice paddy soil works fine, so does any cleaner coastal clay muds.
Kitty litter is just clay.

 

[reefs4lifee]

Rice paddy soil works fine, so does any cleaner coastal clay muds.
Kitty litter is just clay.

Where did you get yours from?

 

[Plantbrain]

Where did you get yours from?

Rice paddy.

 

[reefs4lifee]

Rice paddy.

Yeah I don't think I have access to either a rice paddy nor clean coastal mud around here. I live in New York.

 

[Plantbrain]

"Tell yer Ma, Tell yer Pa, you are headed out to Arkansas!" There and the central CA northern valley= lots of deep rice paddy clay soils, flooded wetland soils.

NY? You'd have to drive a ways.

 

[JLynn]

Is there anything someone living in North Texas could get without too much trouble?

 

[Plantbrain]

Well, if you drive to AR, then perhaps

Otherwise, see if you can buy something mail order.

A decent relative easy overview of what happens when soils are submersed in water:

http://www.knowledgebank.irri.org/submergedsoils/

Tidal and estuary soils as well as marine sediments are similar(different sets of bacteria species etc) but are governed by the same processes. Tidal sediments are the most interesting due to the 2 tides per day.

Marine sediments are 70% of the earth. You'd figure more would be done on them, but it's mostly all out of the photic zone.

I suppose I could go get some and sell it. But..........not many would buy it, and you'd need to rinse it through a wire mesh colander, then you let the soil mud water mix settle in a large bowl/tub below the colander, toss whatever the colander catches. Let this water mud mix sit over night. Decant off the clean water/ supernatant. Save the dirt that's been rinsed and cleaned below.

Allow to dry into a nice thick clay paste.
It's ready to use and has been well oxidized.
It will leach some PO4 for awhile. Not much after a month or so.
It will also lower the redox and increase the COD/BOD, reduce O2 a little bit for about 30-60 days.

I guess using those flat rate boxes, I could stuff some in there.
So a medium rate would get you about 15lbs or so of the stuff, plenty for most folks.

What's 15lbs worth of the MM worth?

45$ shipped for 5 lbs and 80$ for the 10lb box.
I can sell it "dirt" cheap: 1/2 the highest price before ship cost are factored in.

Difference? You'll need to rinse and decant yourself.
I've done way too much over my life to do this at a larger scale.
Maybe 2-3 tons worth of sediment cleaning and I still do it
My professional life is management research for aquatic weed sediment propagules in rice paddies, irrigation canals, lakes and ponds. No aquarium company is going to have the background I do in sediments and plants.

Personally, I'd rather folks do this themselves and learn from it, then teach others.......... rather than selling something. But not everyone is near a nice clay loam soil they can go dig up a bucket full, or in my case, a truck load.

 

[Subsea]

Plantbrain,

Now I know why for location you put swamp.

I have maintained a mud/macro refugium for 12 years. Since I bought it used, I really don't know what was in it. Over the years, it has increased in depth from 3/4" to 1.5". It is spongy to the touch and crawling with worms. I thought that the one thing in common with the aquarium mud products was a high iron content.

While I consider my mud filter to be a success, I have no idea as to the mechanics/functioning of its components. Can you expound on the subject?
Patrick

 

[Plantbrain]

Submersed sediment for marine systems are pretty analogous to wetland and estuary sediments. Mangroves have also been studied extensively. Seagrass beds somewhat. The bulk of the knowledge that would help the aquarist is likely best described in Reddy and Delanue: Biogeochemistry of Wetlands.
Excellent text on the processes.

Most all clay soils will have iron. Plenty. But is the Fe bioavailabkle for the plants? Algae? Algae do not have roots, a few have rhizoids, but these are not nearly as extensive.

Sediment Diatoms also enter sediments and play a large role, but at a much shallower scale, but a massive coverage due to their ubiquitous nature.
Then you have seagrasses, next perhaps mangroves and then you go to estuary species.

So you have a few different systems to work with and think about.
Overall, the refuge/mud, DBS etc, offers us a good place to cycle nutrients and organic fractions thereof. Where aquariums cannot balance those inputs, well, then you have a lot more issues, and less stability.

So bacteria and macro and micro inverts have a nice home and plenty of nutrients/carbon supply etc and get a stable incoming amount, should do well.
Live rock, many corals can also perform these functions. As can water changes and skimmers, bio beads, chemical media to remove these things etc.

You have a few ways to skin a cattail.

I like redundancy. So clay soil that's been mineralized good, critters/bacteria, a skimmer(run for dry foam, which I almost never get any), algae, plants, live rock, corals etc. Nutrients come in from the food/waste, all of the above get some and grow etc.

If something appears nutrient limited, I'll add more food 1st. Then see. If I think I need even more, then I might go to a specific nutrient, say NO3, and add Ca(NO3)2 if the plants/algae are removing too much, or I could also trim the plant/algae biomass back, since less biomass= less uptake= more NO3 available.

We suck as managers for these systems and we neglect things.
So we need to mange our own habits the most and go with a routine that best works well for us. Most of these methods above work well on their own, seeing which is best for you is a personal question.

So that's a human social issue, not a biological marine issue.
As is often the case.

 

[Subsea]

I am a small start up mariculture business with 10K gallons of growout system. Macroalgae is my mainstay. As a method of nutrient enrichment to promote accelerated growth, I have used ironite and stay green purchased from lawn and garden center.

With respect to Ironite, in reading iron analysis at 4.5% with water soluble iron at 2.25%, does that mean that half of the total iron will lay on the bottom as an iron rich salt or clay?
When I calculate soluble iron increase, I used 2.25% times the added weight of Ironite divided by the total weight of 7000 lbs of water times 8.34 lbs per gallon.

Do you see any problems with me using these agriculture products. Do you think hydroponic fertilizers are more cost effective for my application.

Thank you for your informed perspective on this topic and more importantly for sharing.
Patrick

 

[Louis Z]

Subsea , if I remember ironite has a lot of heavy metals in it . I used it on my lawn once and then found out that it contained other minerals not listed on the package. Maybe someone else may chime in

 

[Subsea]

It does not disturb me that Ironite does not list everything. It is an econominal product that would cost more to test down to the micronutrient levels. Many heavy metals are required to trigger enzyme processes in the marine enviroment. Macros will absorb heavy metals and grow strong for it.
Patrick