Amino Acids
- Thread starter rutz81
- Start date
Ok. I will. I started doing Salifert's ~ 6mos. ago. My greens and pinks really popped. Turned more metallic. Millis, spongodes, slimer. Everyone who saw my tank before and after commented on the color improvement. Didn't do much for purples or blues. Also my growth accelerated. I can't say that I've seen any browning or extra algal growth.
Was I just not feeding enough and this made up for a lack? Maybe. But reading the Italian tank thread has me wondering.
Was I just not feeding enough and this made up for a lack? Maybe. But reading the Italian tank thread has me wondering.
I am not too much of an expert but I do have a degree in biochemistry, so maybe I can shed some light. I would not worry about dosing amino acids in the reef tank. I have read several articles in the literature and from what it sounds, corals have a very sophisticated metabolism and can synthesize many of their own amino acids. Not to mention they have bacteria and xooanthellae living in their tissues that alsosynthesize amino acids as well.
The main reason I wouldn't dose amino acids in the tank is that they could be used by bacteria and may lower the oxygen levels.
What I would do is simply give the corals good light and an occasional feeding and not worry about it. That is what I do.
The main reason I wouldn't dose amino acids in the tank is that they could be used by bacteria and may lower the oxygen levels.
What I would do is simply give the corals good light and an occasional feeding and not worry about it. That is what I do.
glassbox-design
New member
Aminos do feed the corals and the bac's...that is part of why they work, especially with carbon sources...
do not use the supps for humans...they do not absorb all aminos and who knows of their purity. We do know of some that they do use....arginine, lysine, etc...
do not use the supps for humans...they do not absorb all aminos and who knows of their purity. We do know of some that they do use....arginine, lysine, etc...
MCsaxmaster
New member
I'd like to make a few comments.
First, corals and many marine invertebrates can directly take up many types of dissolved organic nitrogen (DON) including any amino acid used in the assays (they also take up DOP and DOC, but unless the substance is a sugar or somethign of that sort, must dissolved organics include C, N and P within the same molecule). If the question is do coral holobionts direclty take up amino acids from solution, the answer is yes. It is not known how they are doing this (is the coral animal using an active uptake system? are symbiotic bacteria in the mucus facilitating uptake?) but nonetheless they do it.
Second, at concentrations of DON typical of those found on a coral reef most corals can only satisfy a small (say 10-30%) of their nitrogen needs and an even smaller portion of their carbon needs. When DON is at higher than natural concentrations most corals still cannot meet their N needs from this source.
Third, most stony corals with few exceptions get most of the N they need from ingesting particulates, especially zooplankton prey. A small portion comes from DIN, DON and bacterioplankton, but most of the needs for N (and likely even more so for P) come from eating zooplankton. The ratios of dependence for a coral like Leptoseris, without tentacle development, is heavier on reliance on bacteria, but nonetheless, even the Agariciids rely heavily on zooplankton prey. Our Agaricia agaricites in the lab catch as much Artemia nauplii as any of the other corals when I feed them.
Fourth, while corals do use DON like amino acids directly from solution, the Fitzgerald and Szmant paper is not getting at this fact. Instead, what that paper demonstrates is that corals appear to have a greater abilility to build one amino acid from another as compared to most animals. In humans about 1/3 of the typical amino acids are considered 'essential'--we cannot build them ourselves at all and must completely satisfy our needs through our food. Another third are 'semi-essential'--we can build a little bit, but not enough to meet needs if we are not supplied with those AAs in our diet. Then there is the last third which our bodies can build from other amino acids as needed. It appears that many corals may be able to build all or nearly all of the normal amino acids themselves, though some amino acids may be semi-essential, that is, while a coral can produce some of a certain amino acid, it cannot build a sufficient amount without also receiving some in the diet. This has interesting implications for the evolution of the metazoa, but anyway.
Will adding amino acids to a tank directly provide a coral with N that it can use? Yes, it will. Will adding AAs indirectly provide usuable N due to bacterial uptake, etc., that the coral can then use? Most likely yes. Is dumping amino acids into a tank the most effective or most natural way for corals to receive N? No, probably not. Is a $10 bottle of amino acids (or whatever they cost) more effective than pureeing some seafood and adding this to the tank (pennies on the dollar)? No, probably not.
Chris
First, corals and many marine invertebrates can directly take up many types of dissolved organic nitrogen (DON) including any amino acid used in the assays (they also take up DOP and DOC, but unless the substance is a sugar or somethign of that sort, must dissolved organics include C, N and P within the same molecule). If the question is do coral holobionts direclty take up amino acids from solution, the answer is yes. It is not known how they are doing this (is the coral animal using an active uptake system? are symbiotic bacteria in the mucus facilitating uptake?) but nonetheless they do it.
Second, at concentrations of DON typical of those found on a coral reef most corals can only satisfy a small (say 10-30%) of their nitrogen needs and an even smaller portion of their carbon needs. When DON is at higher than natural concentrations most corals still cannot meet their N needs from this source.
Third, most stony corals with few exceptions get most of the N they need from ingesting particulates, especially zooplankton prey. A small portion comes from DIN, DON and bacterioplankton, but most of the needs for N (and likely even more so for P) come from eating zooplankton. The ratios of dependence for a coral like Leptoseris, without tentacle development, is heavier on reliance on bacteria, but nonetheless, even the Agariciids rely heavily on zooplankton prey. Our Agaricia agaricites in the lab catch as much Artemia nauplii as any of the other corals when I feed them.
Fourth, while corals do use DON like amino acids directly from solution, the Fitzgerald and Szmant paper is not getting at this fact. Instead, what that paper demonstrates is that corals appear to have a greater abilility to build one amino acid from another as compared to most animals. In humans about 1/3 of the typical amino acids are considered 'essential'--we cannot build them ourselves at all and must completely satisfy our needs through our food. Another third are 'semi-essential'--we can build a little bit, but not enough to meet needs if we are not supplied with those AAs in our diet. Then there is the last third which our bodies can build from other amino acids as needed. It appears that many corals may be able to build all or nearly all of the normal amino acids themselves, though some amino acids may be semi-essential, that is, while a coral can produce some of a certain amino acid, it cannot build a sufficient amount without also receiving some in the diet. This has interesting implications for the evolution of the metazoa, but anyway.
Will adding amino acids to a tank directly provide a coral with N that it can use? Yes, it will. Will adding AAs indirectly provide usuable N due to bacterial uptake, etc., that the coral can then use? Most likely yes. Is dumping amino acids into a tank the most effective or most natural way for corals to receive N? No, probably not. Is a $10 bottle of amino acids (or whatever they cost) more effective than pureeing some seafood and adding this to the tank (pennies on the dollar)? No, probably not.
Chris
rutz81
New member
It really sounds like you know what you're talking about on the topic. First off, thanks for the reply. Secondly, adding AA on top of cubed food(not pureed) sounds like it would be a good combination to make sure you have the propoer amount of "N" that your corals need. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Dave
Greg Hiller
New member
I read though the referenced paper quite a while back. I wrote up a little summary on it if it's of any value to people:
I read through the "Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.
In that study they fed corals either radio-labelled glucose, or the radio-labelled amino acids glutamic acid, lysine, or valine. They did the proper controls (IMO) to ensure that contaminating bacteria were not affecting their results. The feeding was done by simply putting the corals in filtered seawater with the various nutrients in the water.
First of all, clearly they had consumption of the amino acids, and the glucose from the water by the coral, and incorporation of the 14C labelled atoms into amino acids and other cellular constituents (proteins, etc.). They used several different species of coral as test subjects, including both photosynthetic, and non-photosynthetic corals, including one Acropora species.
SO, corals CAN take up amino acids (at least 3), and glucose direct from the water. It doesn't seem likely to me that there is much glucose floating around in seawater, too easily consumed a nutrient source. Corals CAN however receive sugars (such as glucose I would assume) direct from their zooxanthellae. The purpose of the study these folks performed however, was to try and figure out which amino acids were 'essential' to corals.
Essential amino acids are defined as those which a particular organism can not synthesize itself from simpler molecules. Apparently no one had previously done this work on corals. In humans we know that 10 amino acids are 'essential'.
These researchers showed that starting with glucose, corals can synthesize at least 16 amino acids, possibly 19, but they could not measure 3 of them. But corals cannot synthesize the amino acid threonine.
The researchers also showed that starting with the amino acid glutamic acid the corals could synthesize at least 14 other amino acids (though 5 were low enough to be considered questionable). From the amino acid lysine or valine corals could make the same set of amino acids as with glutamic acid.
In this study, the scientists were able to isolate the metabolism of the zooxanthellae, from that of the coral tissue itself. It is known (apparently) that zooxanthellae can on their own synthesize all of the 20 normally occuring amino acids. It is also known (referred to other papers) that "only a few non-essential amino acids such as alanine and glutamate are excreted from zooxanthellae". So...the algae living in the corals tissues are not exactly nice about handing over amino acids they make to the coral itself.
What does it all mean for us? We who want to grow corals fast that have pretty colors.. ..I'm not really sure. It is one interesting fact that the one amino acid they are sure corals cannot make is threonine. Since
corals can make at least 16, and perhaps all 19 other amino acids, they would not likely be 'starved' for most amino acids if they did not receive them from the water column in some form, either as food, or by direct absorption. Still it is QUITE possible that corals might grow faster?, or be more colorful? if they had additional access to some amino acids direct from the water column.
In the FWIW category the amino acids that are formed to the 'least' extent by corals are the same ones that are considered 'essential' for many other organisms: tyrosine, valine, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, histidine, lysine, and tryptophan. Whether there would be some particular advantage to adding any of these over the others....? don't know
Amino acids in a pure form are actually pretty cheap, so if anyone wants to dose any particular one it would be easy to prep a supplement mix of your choosing....okay....who's first in line?
I read through the "Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.
In that study they fed corals either radio-labelled glucose, or the radio-labelled amino acids glutamic acid, lysine, or valine. They did the proper controls (IMO) to ensure that contaminating bacteria were not affecting their results. The feeding was done by simply putting the corals in filtered seawater with the various nutrients in the water.
First of all, clearly they had consumption of the amino acids, and the glucose from the water by the coral, and incorporation of the 14C labelled atoms into amino acids and other cellular constituents (proteins, etc.). They used several different species of coral as test subjects, including both photosynthetic, and non-photosynthetic corals, including one Acropora species.
SO, corals CAN take up amino acids (at least 3), and glucose direct from the water. It doesn't seem likely to me that there is much glucose floating around in seawater, too easily consumed a nutrient source. Corals CAN however receive sugars (such as glucose I would assume) direct from their zooxanthellae. The purpose of the study these folks performed however, was to try and figure out which amino acids were 'essential' to corals.
Essential amino acids are defined as those which a particular organism can not synthesize itself from simpler molecules. Apparently no one had previously done this work on corals. In humans we know that 10 amino acids are 'essential'.
These researchers showed that starting with glucose, corals can synthesize at least 16 amino acids, possibly 19, but they could not measure 3 of them. But corals cannot synthesize the amino acid threonine.
The researchers also showed that starting with the amino acid glutamic acid the corals could synthesize at least 14 other amino acids (though 5 were low enough to be considered questionable). From the amino acid lysine or valine corals could make the same set of amino acids as with glutamic acid.
In this study, the scientists were able to isolate the metabolism of the zooxanthellae, from that of the coral tissue itself. It is known (apparently) that zooxanthellae can on their own synthesize all of the 20 normally occuring amino acids. It is also known (referred to other papers) that "only a few non-essential amino acids such as alanine and glutamate are excreted from zooxanthellae". So...the algae living in the corals tissues are not exactly nice about handing over amino acids they make to the coral itself.
What does it all mean for us? We who want to grow corals fast that have pretty colors.. ..I'm not really sure. It is one interesting fact that the one amino acid they are sure corals cannot make is threonine. Since
corals can make at least 16, and perhaps all 19 other amino acids, they would not likely be 'starved' for most amino acids if they did not receive them from the water column in some form, either as food, or by direct absorption. Still it is QUITE possible that corals might grow faster?, or be more colorful? if they had additional access to some amino acids direct from the water column.
In the FWIW category the amino acids that are formed to the 'least' extent by corals are the same ones that are considered 'essential' for many other organisms: tyrosine, valine, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, histidine, lysine, and tryptophan. Whether there would be some particular advantage to adding any of these over the others....? don't know
Amino acids in a pure form are actually pretty cheap, so if anyone wants to dose any particular one it would be easy to prep a supplement mix of your choosing....okay....who's first in line?
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
Greg and Chris - thanks for chiming in and helping us non-coral/non-chemistry folks understand the literature.
I got quite a bit from each of your posts ... as always
]
Perhaps DIY aminos would be closer to a good seafood mix in cost ... but given my experiences with these products, I'm making more DIY food instead. I can see my corals ingest that ... and the rest of the food-consumers in my tank as well.
I got quite a bit from each of your posts ... as always
$10 would be cheap, IME. Some brands run MUCH more expensive. [one of the brands I've tested I got half-used from another reefer ... seem to recall the price on the side as closer to $50 than $10
]Perhaps DIY aminos would be closer to a good seafood mix in cost ... but given my experiences with these products, I'm making more DIY food instead. I can see my corals ingest that ... and the rest of the food-consumers in my tank as well.
Serioussnaps
New member
Is there a good reason why you would think adding AA's would benefit your system? is there a problem? some sort of improvement? or are you like me and just like to tinker?
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
IMO, I don't see the need.
Esp. after experimenting with AA [after hearing their benefits told for a couple years, I decided to tinker], and experimenting with foods .... IMO, it's the same benefits [in general] from both.
Given seafood feeds a LOT more stuff in the tank, costs radically less, and is more fun to feed [the fish respond] ... I don't see the reason to choose AA's over a good food mix.
And, IME, AA's are easy to overdose and cause nutrient issues with [others mentioned this above too].
When looking at ways to improve my tank, I doubt I'll experiment with these for quite a while.
Esp. after experimenting with AA [after hearing their benefits told for a couple years, I decided to tinker], and experimenting with foods .... IMO, it's the same benefits [in general] from both.
Given seafood feeds a LOT more stuff in the tank, costs radically less, and is more fun to feed [the fish respond] ... I don't see the reason to choose AA's over a good food mix.
And, IME, AA's are easy to overdose and cause nutrient issues with [others mentioned this above too].
When looking at ways to improve my tank, I doubt I'll experiment with these for quite a while.
Serioussnaps
New member
Im with Mark......stated my thoughts perfectly. I have become a huge fan of feeding a varied SEAFOOD type diet......mysis, cylcopeeze, oyster eggs, phtyo, selcon, golden pearls....the list goes on......there has to be no doubt that there are plenty of Aminos present in these types of foods from the first place.......so the question lies in whether the corals can process the aminos present in these types of foods.......that i wont venture into because i am uninformed, uninterested, and dont feel like spending the time grasping it
Greg Hiller
New member
AA supplements. I've never used them, but there's a member of our club who has. The person has a really nice tank (SPS dominated), and I've seen a lot of tanks. Whether the use of the amino acids supplement makes a difference I do not know. I ran a few tests on the supplement in the lab, and from what little I did it could not be very concentrated (freezing point suppression). If this is just amino acids, and if it really made a difference, you could whip it up in the lab for pennies.
rutz81
New member
Yeah, that's where I got the idea from. I know zeovit focuses on low phosphates and nitrates, something I've pretty much got under control. But, the one thing I wasn't doing that these systems were was adding amino acids and coral foods. So, I figured I'd add more and get these AA. I would love to have the color of some of those zeovit systems, and if all it takes is adding 3 drops a day of any bottle.
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