Amphiprion allardi (African Allardi Clownfish) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

I did think of that, but ultimately went with potentially the "biggest bully" into isolation for the time being. I'm more concerned about the tiny new black Ocellaris being in the same tank with the Big Allardi OR the little allardi and big allardi sharing the net (not sure their pair bond is very strong at this point...)

I'm basically thinking that short term, a bully allardi is more of a problem then a bully ocellaris. Sidelining bullies (keeping them in the tank, but not able to interact) can often cause them to chill out (or occaisonally go psychotic when placed back into the tank).

I'm just in "wait and see" mode...

Matt

 

[mwp]

So I have to post an update relating both the Allardi and Black Ocellaris pairs that are currently housed with my Mandarins and Seahorses. It's been a few days now that the clowns are battling a serious case of what I'm 90% sure is ICH, but it may actually be ICH, Brook, or Oodinium, or a combination thereof. I'm leaning towards two possible causes - nighttime temp drops (I let my house get down to 65F, but the tanks *should* be staying up) - OR - the big bruhaha I made in the tank when the Male Black Ocellaris disappeared. In the process of ripping apart the tank, I KNOW I stirred up a lot of sediment / detritus + it was a stressful event. I'm thinking I may have stirred up DORMANT CYSTS and VIOLA, OUTBREAK. The original female Black Ocellaris has yet to show ANY symptoms, and the pair of Barbouri, the MALE Mandarin and the pair of Rusty Gobies seem unaffected. However, the female mandarin is LOADED...she probably has it the worst.

I'm doing EVERYTHING I can in my power to bring this under control, but I'm afraid things are going well. Yesterday I put down our "spare" male Barbouri Seahorse rather than have him die in the tank (and thus have all those parasites LEAVE his body to reproduce / look for a new host). In a nutshell, here's the rundown of steps I've been able to take (remember, this is a REEF and ALL my tanks are currently occupied).

1. A spare, brand new UV (9 watt internal) was thrown into the tank.

2. Daily dosings of Marine Max (probiotic bacteria + vitamins)

3. Daily dosings of Reef Plus (vitamins).

4. Two FW dips with Methelyne Blue (one a couple days ago, one this evening).

5. Large daily water changes, on the order of 50-80% (to help "dilute" concentrations of the free swimming parasite stage).

6. Daily cleaning of all mechanical filters.

7. Removal of chemical filtration media (which I theorize simply adds "surface area" for reproductive stages of the parasite. They also aren't needed with DAILY water changes on the magnitude I'm performing).

8. Focusing on Selcon Enriched Foods (to up the caloric content). Feeding OFTEN (appetites are diminished, but not gone at this time).

9. There is a Cleaner Shrimp in the tank. I've seen the "female" Allardi visit it once....otherwise not doing much or so it seems.

When I had the outbreak in my OTHER tank (do to stupidity and a non-functioning UV) these methods helped stave it off and ultimately the fish recovered. However, NONE of the fish ever got as bad as the clowns currently are, ESPECIALLY the condition of the Allardi pair (and especially the much smaller MALE within that pair).

That's the news for the moment. I'm at the point where I'm considering breaking down and locating a reef safe medication (i.e. Greenex)...ultimately all the coral life in the tank is REPLACEABLE if it came to that.

Any other thoughts, I welcome them! My hope and optimism are slowly being erroded. It's been a rough couple weeks here!

MP

 

[Galilean]

Matt, why don't you just take the fish out and move to a low salinity hospital tank for a while? It seems like a lot of work could be avoided this way. Water changes would be easier, less surfaces for cysts to hide on, no worries about the coral. You can keep the temperature high to speed up the life cycle. I’ve completely wiped out ich this way in two weeks at 1.014 specific gravity for a flame angel, bicolor angel, percula clown, orchid dottyback, and a yellow tang in a 20 gallon. I dosed greenex during acclimation, did a 75% water change on day 2 and dosed greenex again, 75% water change on day 4 and greenex a third time. Day 6 I water-changed out the greenex and I acclimated a 10 inch strand of grape caluerpa from a no-fish (hence, no ich) tank to low salinity for chemical filtration and bared it with a tank divider to protect it from the herbivores. I tried to acclimate some hair algae too. But it couldn’t take it and the cells all burst. I imagine the protozoans all died the same way when they tried to reproduce. The greenex was to prevent anything in the water from acclimating with the fish. My dad proved in an experiment with mollies that freshwater ich can be drip acclimated to full salt and reproduce there. So you have to catch it in between life cycles. If the cysts on the fish were from full salt, they come out expecting full salt. But they are able to change up if they are in the water while acclimating. By day 7 there were no signs of ich. I kept them at 1.014 for another week to be certain but it never came back. I returned them to the reef tank with no further signs of ich as of about a year now.

 

[mwp]

1-22-07 - this morning the fish looked at their all time worst, specifically the two Allardi. I offered up pellets - 0 interest. I offered up cyclopeze / cyclops (the "male"'s favorite) - 0 interest. They only ate Live Baby Brine Shrimp!

This evening I returned home and the Allardi's appetite was kinda back...they hit the Cyclopeze/ Cyclops mix with gusto. I also picked up Ruby Reef's Kick Ich, which has very MIXED reviews (i.e. even the shop owner I got it from was VERY hesitant to let me walk out of the door with it, and he SELLS the stuff). Despite those mixed reviews (i.e. some folks say it works, seems more say it doesn't), it was basically my only real option for "medication" as it's been shown to be "reef safe" at least for Xenia, and Greenex is basically off the market.

I'm DEBATING what else to do at this point. The female Allardi was again visitiing the cleaner shrimp this afternoon for a minute, but the cleaner shrimp is really doing nothing significant. I don't want to put the fish through the additional stress of more FW dips (which for the most part haven't seemed to help). I'm honestly sick and tired of doing massive water changes, and am worried that these, while definitely able to dilute the amount of parasite in the water, may also be adding stress to the sick fish. I also question the water change's effectiveness, as I read somewhere that the ich cysts hatch out overnight and must find a host basically before dawn, or their chances of attaching are slim. Thus, the only way I'm really going to lower the level of parasites is to do the big water change in the middle of the night!

Prayer has become an option...

MP

 

[xfury]

I know you are kinda limited on tanks but I have read that ich does not like smooth surfaces, ie bare bottom tank, and if it cannot find a suitable place to camp while looking for a host it will die. I have done it a few times and it seems to work ok.

 

[vaporize]

Matt, you really not considering taking them out to QT and treat them? 10G tanks are like $10 from walmart afterall + airpump+sponge filter + heater. You must have gone thru some trouble to get those fish in the first place, kinda suck to stick with the reef.

 

[mwp]

Vapo, unfortunately YES. I'm limited to 2 10 gallon tanks. Combined, both hold around 150-200 fish. Monetarily down the line, that represents a lot more than what the Allardi cost me to this point.

I haven't completely GIVEN UP on changing a tank over to QT, but there are several steps in the only scenario I have at my disposal. The first involves moving all the babies from Batch VI (around 40, also 40 days old) to a breeder net. The only tank available to handle a breeder net full of 40 babies happens to be a 24 gallon with 16 fish in it already. So there's my first hesitation.

IF I were to move them out, the next step is to move all the babies from Batch VIII, which are currently only 15 or so days, down into the lower 10 with the Greenbanded Gobies (which are currently sharing quarters with Batch VI). This then opens up an empty 10 gallon tank.

These 2 steps have been in my mind since long before the Seahorse/Allardi/BlackOC/Mandarin#1 tank broke out with ICH. It was a tentative plan for freeing up the top 10 gallon tank to try to rais another batch of whatevers...whether that be another Perc Batch, or more likely another attempt at Apogon leptacanthus.

IF I were to implement this series of moves, that still leaves me with an empty 10 gallon tank with no seeded biological filtration, and that's a problem I have no quick or easy solution for at the moment. If I were to move the fish, the question at this point is whether I move only those showing symptoms, or move them all. To move them all is to move 2 Allardi, 2 Barbouri Seahorses, 2 Mandarins, 2 Rusty Gobies and 2 Black Ocellaris all into a 10 gallon tank with NO seeded biological filtration. And to be truly effective as a long term solution, this means leaving the fish in this 10 gallon tank for a minimum of 30 days, but 60 being more ideal.

So in weighing out all my options, I see a couple issues. First, copper as a medication is out ANYWAY due to the possibility of delaying or sterilizing broodstock. 2nd, the increased stress of the move may cause fish that are currently unaffected to break down. Third, having no established biological filtration means that while the fish go through quarantine, I'll have to deal with a cycling tank.

I may have mentioned this before, but I did have a somewhat simliar outbreak in the cardinalfish tank a while back when I stupidly introduced a mandarin that was covered in ICH (simply didn't bother to observe the fish in detail when I had the guys at the shop bag it up...since they know my background, they didn't bother to check the fish I had selected either, can't blame 'em). Anyway, the ICH spread to other tankmates largely due to my UV not being running. I implemented the same initial "treatments" I've used on this current outbreak, focusing on heavy water changes and probiotics, and overall it worked out in the end, no losses. However, none of the fish got nearly as bad, nor as quickly, as this current problem has.

The fact that this cropped up without ANY new additions has be boggled...the tank hasn't gotten a new fish in MONTHS. According to the prevailing "data", ICH isn't supposed to be able to just "crop up" out of nowhere, and isn't "brought on by stress", but unless I'm overlooking something, this is EXACLTY what has happened in my tank.

For now, I'm doing what can be done I suppose, given my current situation. Unfortunately, a THIRD 10 gallon tank literally is not an option..there's literally no place to put one. So that means, based on the reasoning above, that I'm going to have to leave the fish be in the reef setup, and I'm going to have to do everything I can within the constraints of a reef setup to rectify the problem. Trust me, I literally thought about using something NOT reef safe - other than a nice cup coral and the 2 rhodactis, the rest of the coral / invert life in that tank is "replaceable". I also thought about MOVING that life out, but of course that really increases the risk of introducing the ICH into a 2nd tank (which is a worse option). So, they're stuck in the reef for now, and I'm hoping that with all my good efforts the fish can turn the corner on the ICH.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[mwp]

BTW, for anyone reading who hasn't already figured this out, my predicament is why EVERYONE suggests having a quarantine / hospital tank in place, and why all the SERIOUS marine fish breeders most certainly are not keeping their stock in "reef" tanks, with any invertebrate life for that matter. I'm stuck in the position where I like to push the envelop at all corners, and right now I'm getting pushed back.

BTW, FWIW, I have ONE MORE whacked out theory I may just try...that is placing a good sized amount of copepods and rotifers into the tank. There has to be smaller micro predators that FEED on the free swimming stages of ICH (heck, I wonder if certain CORALS might eat that stuff).

It's a long shot, but it won't hurt to try. I really don't care WHAT works, so long as we reach the desired end result of once again healthy fish.

MP

 

[mwp]

This morning I though the allardi's were goners for sure, but this afternoon they're looking no worse, perhaps a little better, than yesterday. I threw caution to the wind and added a 2nd dose of Kick Ich to the tank...the only thing that's really not happy about it are some Yellow Polyps...big woop. If "Kick Ich" is hit and miss due to being a "low dose" in order to make it completely "Reef safe", whatever.

The Allardi's are taking cyclopeze, live baby brine, and frozen brine. I went one step further with the "homeopathics"...Garlic Guard showed up in the mail today and onto the food it went.

I'm still not 100% optimistic...it's really hard to sit here at my desk, look to my left, and watch a tank full of suffering fish. I'm hoping they turn the corner soon and start coming back.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[Kmiec123]

Just a thought, any LFS to haelp wout with QT? AKing for help has aloway been hard for me...I have a seasoned spong on a growout tank...Think that would be ok for a Qt? If so I got and empty 10 gal sitting here...option open if you want....best of luck Matt...Carl

 

[mwp]

Well, FWIW, the Allardi are now in a QT along with the Black Ocellaris (and the FEMALE CONTINUES to be ICH FREE)...moved the 17 day old percs to a breeder net. Things haven't gotten worse, but they haven't gotten any BETTER either. I'm going for HYPO salinity for starters (so far down to 1.017...will probably drop to 1.014 tomorrow and *maybe* go a little farther, we'll see how they react), will probably combine with daily 50% water changes, still up in the air on meds. Also up in the air on what I'm going to do with the rest of the fish in the tank, but I DO plan on continuing with the Ruby Reef Kick ICH dosings.

For what it's worth, at the time of posting, the fish look better than I've seen them in weeks. I believe most of the ICH dropped off them today, but again, I'm not talking about "looks" as in physical appearance so much as "looks" in terms of behavior....they're alert, active, so far the move to QT has been a good thing (surprise surprise).

The battle plan keeps changing by the day as things progress (or don't!).

MP

 

[xfury]

Best of luck.

 

[mwp]

Thanks Josh. The way they're acting now in the QT tank, I'd think they'll be able to turn the corner and make a full recovery. Of course I haven't fed them anything yet...we'll see how happy they "really" are later on this evening.

It's the first little bit of optimism I've had in a few weeks!

Matt

 

[mwp]

After a lot of research and discussions, I went for some medication. Quick Cure (Malachite Green / Formalin) was ultimately what I chose. Let's hope this was the right decision.

Matt

 

[mwp]

One last update...FWIW my gut is telling me, "boy, they did NOT like that". The Allardi's and Black OC's took some frozen brine and mysis, but only the unafflicted Black OC female showed any gusto in her feeding.

The big change is that the Allardi's and male Black OC showed VERY PRONOUNCED white spots only a couple hours after the introduction of medication....they weren't like this when I put them in the tank. I can only wonder if this is basically a sign of the parasites being irritated or attacked by the meds and looking to fall off or something, but again, even just a simple 1 drop per gallon dosing of Quick Cure had a noticeable negative impact on the behavior of the fish. I went with Quick Cure hoping that this dual formulation of Malachite Green and Formalin would handle any secondary infections, because in my honest opinion, while this started as ICH, it looked like things had progressed to the point where I may have also had Oodinium or even Brooklynella going at the same time. I also hoped that because it's a dual-med formula, the levels of each medication might be a bit lower than a "Malachite Green" or "Formalin Only" type med...they both have some negative effects, but nothing as drastic as copper (the last thing I want to do is STERILIZE my broodstock, which as it turns out in my reading / research seems like a very REAL possiblity).

FWIW,

Matt

 

[vaporize]

Matt, just a couple of things I noticed and questionable.

I am sure Malachite Green + Formalin will probably work a bit different than copper as copper will only attack ich larva swimming in the water - 2nd stage (or lightly attached, less than 12 hrs on the host). I would think the formalin actually might burn the fish's gill and skin a bit so the fish would not be too comfortable.

As for the dual medication treating secondary infection, that will not happen both malachite green and formalin are not of antibiotics nature and most of the secondary infections are of bacteria nature.

If at one point you really have to go with copper treatment, use only seachem cupramine as it is the mildest form of copper (copper salt - i.e. copper sulfate worst; chelated copper - worse; cupramine - complex copper - bad). Pick your poison.

 

[mwp]

Vaporize, my "secondary infection" concerns weren't so much in regards to bacterial issues as secondary parasites like Brooklynella or Oodinium, thus the choice of Quick Cure over some others. Very familiar with Cupramine..would've been what I went for.

So this morning, the fish look more alert than they have in past days...heck the female Allardi is already trying to "run the show". Still parasites on the fish, but this is the kind of improvement I'm looking for. 50% Water change this afternoon to bring down salinity a bit further, followed by a redosing, that's the plan.

Matt

 

[vaporize]

Matt, if it's just Ich, in QT you can bring the salinity down to 1.010 (and stay for a few weeks) to rid of it. Have to monitor pH closely and half the dosage of medication thou.

You seeing any signs of Brook or Amy?

good luck

 

[mwp]

Vapo, I saw some "pealing" on the head of the allardi, which combined with the overall "cloudy" nature suggested brook to me. Amy (same as Ood) I'm not so sure on...not sure if I'm confusing a couple different things here. I guess my main reason for having some difficulties in diagnosis is that my fish so rarely get sick in the first place!!!

Matt

 

[mwp]

So GREAT news - I offered up Formula 1 pellets and they ALL ate 'em! While there's no real VISUAL improvement, behaviorly this is a big step forward!

Matt