Another "Get off my lawn" moment from the washed-up: ULNS??

[reefer91]

i have issues both w/ snake oil salesmen, AND the 'hobbyists' who propagate their 'magic potions'.

the whole mode of behavior is silly.

and, 'beat up'? i'm not the one making baseless unprovable assertions, and then claiming that scientific method doesn't exist, or isn't a viable method, in the world of coral aquaria. i would think that making such statements without being able to take the criticism that's guaranteed to follow is far worse than calling someone out on it accordingly. again 'magic believers' have no credibility, other than for people like doug henning, or kreskin

I've said this before... but Zeo works (along with other systems) and that is enough for a lot of people. Can you really fault someone for doing something that gets them from point A to B in a proven manner? They don't understand why it works and they don't care. It's all about the end result for a lot of people: A nice tank. This is something that is lost by a lot of people in this hobby. That's not propagating magic just because it goes against your philosophy. There is a reason it works and we don't know and probably won't for a long, long time. Not everyone has to share your relentless attitude toward zeo clarity/transparency (although not enough to actually do anything about it beyond get riled up on here).

Quote a post where people call it magic in the way you describe. Of course people are loyal to a system that works for them. So what? That's nothing more than calling something magic because it is magic until it is understood.

That's not selling magnetic bracelets lol.

 

[karsseboom]

wow. someone makes the ridiculous assertion that there's a paucity of scientific info on coral biology and science. that post stays. i laugh at such an ignorant (and yes,it's the epitome of ignorance) statement and my post gets snuffed. wow. just-wow.

if most hobbyists had karsseboom's mentality, we'd still be using incandescent bulbs on tanks full of shrooms as the 'cutting edge' of reefkeeping. afaict.

any product that has no definitive description or actual scientific basis of proof other than it's some mumbo jumbo cocktail that works is snake oil. period.

anyone who asks anyone to just accept that something 'works' w/out being able to explain why is a snake oil salesman, or a snake oil believer.

it's been established time and time and time again that just as beautiful a result can be obtained w/NONE of any of these b.s. additives. the claim that 'one can pick out a zeovit (or other vit) tank from others a mile away' (Paraphrase) is equally as ludicrous. just that one statement is pretty much an absolute credibility destroyer, in my book.

you may as well say it works because 'it's magic!'

The problem with a side by side test is it so nearly impossible to replicate to exact systems even if the same equipment was used. You should know this. I couldn't even recreate my own system twice. There are to many variables to even give the test results credibility. Anyone who has been keeping sps for some time knows this. Corals respond to different tanks and fragging..etc differently even of things appear to be the same.

For example I could frag a colony into 2 frags and place them next to each other and one may do better then the other. Was that side of the tank better? They were right next to each other? That's the reason why we don't have experiments like this. We may come to a close to distinguishing the difference but not enough to apply it to science.

I have said it three time now what is in the foundation of the zeovit method. Go read my other post where I explained what the basic four are. There are other company's now producing methods similar using the same principles but I doubt there as effective.

Please go read where I explained to other poster how the basic four lower no3 and po4 before you reply.

 

[Thales]

The problem with a side by side test is it so nearly impossible to replicate to exact systems even if the same equipment was used. You should know this. I couldn't even recreate my own system twice. There are to many variables to even give the test results credibility. Anyone who has been keeping sps for some time knows this. Corals respond to different tanks and fragging..etc differently even of things appear to be the same.

No one is trying to replicate a system, its about testing a methodology.

For example I could frag a colony into 2 frags and place them next to each other and one may do better then the other. Was that side of the tank better? They were right next to each other? That's the reason why we don't have experiments like this. We may come to a close to distinguishing the difference but not enough to apply it to science.

But you are wrong about that - sorry to be blunt. There are tons of experiments testing bleaching, heat, pathogens, acidification etc that use corals. They get around the problems you suggest above by a larger sample size.

 

[karsseboom]

No one is trying to replicate a system, its about testing a methodology.



But you are wrong about that - sorry to be blunt. There are tons of experiments testing bleaching, heat, pathogens, acidification etc that use corals. They get around the problems you suggest above by a larger sample size.

That is different. They are using one system and introducing elements and seeing how corals respond. How would they even know what caused that resusult? Could have been somthing else they did? Can they be 100% postive what happned in tank Y was because of X?

Why do we know so little about acropora if all they have to do is setup these experiments? My guess is that they can't say for certain whats happening. What little we do know is what we as hobbyist have concluded, which is still up for debate.

In order for a double blind study to be fair both systems need to be identical. They can't be identical because theres to many variables in seawater that contribute to a corals health.


Why would we need a test? We already know what can be accompished with and with out zeovit.

 

[karsseboom]

wow. someone makes the ridiculous assertion that there's a paucity of scientific info on coral biology and science. that post stays. i laugh at such an ignorant (and yes,it's the epitome of ignorance) statement and my post gets snuffed. wow. just-wow.

if most hobbyists had karsseboom's mentality, we'd still be using incandescent bulbs on tanks full of shrooms as the 'cutting edge' of reefkeeping. afaict.

any product that has no definitive description or actual scientific basis of proof other than it's some mumbo jumbo cocktail that works is snake oil. period.

anyone who asks anyone to just accept that something 'works' w/out being able to explain why is a snake oil salesman, or a snake oil believer.

it's been established time and time and time again that just as beautiful a result can be obtained w/NONE of any of these b.s. additives. the claim that 'one can pick out a zeovit (or other vit) tank from others a mile away' (Paraphrase) is equally as ludicrous. just that one statement is pretty much an absolute credibility destroyer, in my book.

you may as well say it works because 'it's magic!'

You can't pick a zeovit tanks from other methods? You don't see a resemblance in those tanks pictures I posted? If not then you haven't been around many sps tanks.

 

[Thales]

That is different. They are using one system and introducing elements and seeing how corals respond. How would they even know what caused that resusult? Could have been somthing else they did? Can they be 100% postive what happned in tank Y was because of X?

Some use one system, some don't. It isn't different, this is basic science. That is why in such tests you standardize methodology of the test. That is why sometimes tests are run several times. No one expects 100% that is what +/- is for.

Why do we know so little about acropora if all they have to do is setup these experiments?

We know quite a bit about Acropora, but there is still more to learn.

My guess is that they can't say for certain whats happening.

Guessing is problematic.

In order for a double blind study to be fair both systems need to be identical. They can't be identical because theres to many variables in seawater that contribute to a corals health.

I have not suggested a double blind study. You can make two tanks very similar, similar enough to do a simple test, by the methodology of the test.

Why would we need a test? We already know what can be accompished with and with out zeovit.

All we have is anecdote, it would be much nicer to have more than that.

 

[galleon]

Karssebom, You should go tell all the folks doing multi-system CO2/ocean acidification/carbonate chemistry work on SPS corals that they are wasting their careers.

In science we use replicates, or pseudoreplicates. Take, for example, a large staghorn colony. You break it into 100 frags and randomly put 50 in each system. This allows a statistical distributions of the observations to be built.

 

[karsseboom]

why would anyone post such a study here if it's to be deleted in favor of dogmatic assertions about magic potions ?

this is one of my biggest peeves about the 'hobbyist' world in general, and the 'supplement' industry in particular. most of these companies should be sued out of existence, imo.

and anyone who prefers the mentality of the dark ages should really refrain from posting UNLESS they're ready to take criticism back, that's just as assertive as their fables

i wouldn't say my posts were hostile and defensive. i would say rather that krasserboom's posts are insulting to biologists, ichthyologists, and coral scientists the planet over.

he should talk to dana riddle, bruce carlson, et al, etc etc etc

one month's worth of reading any 10 random emails to coral-list would prove that krasserboom is making some truly astoundingly patently false and ludicrous statements.

the danger lies in others who don't know any better also staying in the dark ages because counter responses that are equally as strongly worded get squashed (even if they don't use words to make their point!

there's only one reason for any failure in a reef tank (barring equipment failure), or any other type of tank-user error

What valuable information can a coral biologist give me to help explain why sps corals RTN for no apparent reason when all my parameters were spot on? Marine biologist are some of the worst sps keepers I have seen. They are text book kings.

Intact there is an aqaurium that close by my house. They are like the zoo but with tropical marine life. They have a few nice display tanks and one is a full blown sps reef. They had hired 4 certified marine biologist to care for the systems. They ended up firing all four because they couldn't maintain the tanks to save there life. I talked to the owner and he said they were very smart and looked good on paper buy in the real world of keeping sps in a closed environment they were completely lost.

 

[karsseboom]

Karssebom, You should go tell all the folks doing multi-system CO2/ocean acidification/carbonate chemistry work on SPS corals that they are wasting their careers.

In science we use replicates, or pseudoreplicates. Take, for example, a large staghorn colony. You break it into 100 frags and randomly put 50 in each system. This allows a statistical distributions of the observations to be built.

That's very broad though and we are taking comparing methods for keeping sps not how corals reproduce and grow. It makes a difference.

For an example could they do the same test and find out why some corals in tank x have better color then y? Because that is what we are talkng about.

Could they say higher light? Well I have seen corals in lower light do better in a different system. Could they say keeping the dkh at 8.5 is best? Well I have seen better results with dkh at 14. Could they say that particular coral like higher flow? We mine is in lower flow and looks better....etc

 

[Thales]

For an example could they do the same test and find out why some corals in tank x have better color then y? Because that is what we are talkng about.

Not the same test, but a different test, or series of tests, could be designed to do that - although 'better color' would need to be defined.

 

[galleon]

What valuable information can a coral biologist give me to help explain why sps corals RTN for no apparent reason when all my parameters were spot on? Marine biologist are some of the worst sps keepers I have seen. They are text book kings.

LOL, what marine biologists have you seen keep SPS? It's funny, because marine biologists (and other marine-related scientists) I know are the best SPS keepers I've ever seen.

 

[Thales]

The marine biologists are good/bad at keeping coral is the dumbest discussion ever. Some are good at it, some aren't, just like everyone else regarding everything else.
PUBLIUS.

 

[karsseboom]

LOL, what marine biologists have you seen keep SPS? It's funny, because marine biologists (and other marine-related scientists) I know are the best SPS keepers I've ever seen.

I just gave you an example. Understanding seawater chemistry and keeping sps corals in a closed system is entirely different task. Just go look in the chemistry section on the forum and see how many of the really knowledgeable ones are successfully keeping a thriving sps dominate tank.

 

[galleon]

I just gave you an example.

You gave an unsupported, hyperbolic, broadly libelous statement.

 

[Thales]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MpraJYnbVtE

 

[karsseboom]

You gave an unsupported, hyperbolic, broadly libelous statement.

So i'm lying? lol okay then your lying about your post.

 

[MammothReefer]

the only qualification needed would be one who can follow simple directions to set up a simple comparison test-no degrees required

a 12 yr old could do it

I'm not trying to argue with you.. but this is what I'm talking about. Very condescending responses.

If "anybody" did it would be refuted to no end. Somebody with creditability needs to take the initiative on these type of things. Honestly I don't care either way, I don't use Zeo products anymore. My only goal was to try to put a constructive spin on the topic that hopefully everybody could agree to. I failed at that and am going to go back on the sidelines to let you guys argue until the thread gets locked.

 

[Thales]

If "anybody" did it would be refuted to no end. Somebody with creditability needs to take the initiative on these type of things.

I disagree and think it is an import disagreement. This is the beauty of science; having notoriety or not doesn't matter, the materials, methods and results do.

 

[chrisneill1987]

I have run pellets for the life of my tank. Almost 3 years now, and have never run GFO. My phosphate levels are 0.00 right now(hanna checker) despite feeding both fish and corals very heavily.

im another, no3 0.5 and po4 >0.03

 

[karsseboom]

I'm not trying to argue with you.. but this is what I'm talking about. Very condescending responses.

If "anybody" did it would be refuted to no end. Somebody with creditability needs to take the initiative on these type of things. Honestly I don't care either way, I don't use Zeo products anymore. My only goal was to try to put a constructive spin on the topic that hopefully everybody could agree to. I failed at that and am going to go back on the sidelines to let you guys argue until the thread gets locked.

Right on the money. It would be refuted to the end with no conclusion made. You understand things and I think most other experienced reefers won't comment because they see the same thing and don't want to be involved in this ****ing match.

This is nothing new. We have been going round and round with zeovit arguments. The system works well at lowering no3 and po4 and that's all that matters. There are a lot of blue bottles in the system that I have not used and don't plan to, but the basic four we do know what is in them and how they work. I can't explain the ingredients of the other bottle but you don't need them either to have those colors, the basic four will accomplish that goal.