Another Ich question

[Freed]

Leebca, what method of medication would you recommend to use to combat a noticeable ich infestation? I know that by the time it is noticeable it is well progressed. Are you a fan of the so called "garlic" route of combat? I think it's a bunch of hog wash but being that you are a studied individual of the disease can you recommend anything that beats the ich over another method? I have a new copperband butterfly and a 6 line wrasse in QT right now and they don't show any signs of the disease but if they exhibit it in the near future what do you suggest?

 

[leebca]

MGB,

Terry's points are well taken, based upon what the fish's life-style is about. But your point is still weakened by the fact that for 20 years, prior to reef tanks being embraced by marine aquarists, our tanks were not anything in the way of appearing like a reef.

My personal success at keeping fish in that no-way-looking-like-a-reef-tank environment (taking into account the variations mentioned by Terry) is no different than my success at keeping fish in a reef. If the fish is properly acclimated, the asthetics to the scenary are in the minds of humans. How long do you think a fish can remember what its home looked like?

I can only base my opinion on my experience and observation.

I can just as easily get a fish to live in a bare tank with hiding places and food, as I can in a reef tank with hiding places and food, if the fish is properly acclimated first. Those who say their fish live better in the reef tank without going through QT are actually experiencing that their fish eats all the available food in the fake reef and then dies of starvation, never acclimating. So the outward appeaance is that the fish is living longer, but I say, the fish never acclimated to captive life.

 

[leebca]

Freed,

Garlic has its place, but it doesn't cure Marine Ich. The danger in using garlic is that the right medication isn't being administered and valuable cure time is being wasted. For my opinions about garlic, see these threads:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=541977

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=546776

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=518230

Also take a look at Steven Proââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s Article on that garlic doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t cure nor increases the immune response:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

Alternative cures are mentioned in several articles. If you want references to those, I can provide them.

As for me, the preferred cure method is copper when the fish and copper get along. I prefer copper first because it is quick and I can easily control it --- I'm good at it! I favor the use of Cupramine because of its gentler affects on fishes.

If there is any doubt about how the fish takes to copper or if the infestation seems minor, I will use hyposalinity, but I use 11ppt hyposalinity and monitor it four times a day.

What I recommend to new and nearly new aquarists is to use hyposalinity. It is easier to control; harder to control pH; but non-lethal if the aquarist makes a mistake. If I could trust all aquarists to do it right and use Cupramine, I'd favor that as my first choice (i.e., if it is suitable for the fish species being treated).

I'm too lazy for this one, but the transfer method is useful in fighting this disease. It's my own laziness that holds me back from even mentioning it in almost all of my posts.

So, this is along route to get to the answer to your question. . .Use hyposalinity for those two fish if they contract/have Marine Ich. Combine this treatment, with vacuuming the tank out twice a day.

:rollface:

 

[Freed]

Should I do hypo right now just in case and as a preventative? No signs of ich at all but they are both eating extremely well and look absolutely fantastic and would hate to lose them if I should have started hypo by now. Your thoughts please. Thanks, Jeff

 

[XeniaMania]

I think I'm gonna get flamed for this post but I've always let my fish just go. I view Ich like chickenpox, they only get it once. When I get a new fish, I'll see a slight case of Ich, but then over a few days, it'll go away. The new fish is always the ones who get it, but my old fish will never get it again. I've even had a heater go out, dropping my tank into the 60s at night for a month or 2, and 70s during the day. Miraculously, nothing was dying which why I didn't know the heater was out...ok ok ok I lied, my macroalgae was dying..

 

[leebca]

Freed,

I've never supported treatment of fishes 'just in case' they're sick. First off, hyposalinity is only good for treating one disease. There are many diseases and conditions which affect fish. I h ave two exceptions. I treat all tangs with Cupramine (to kill MI and MV); and although I don't keep anemonefishes, I would treat them for Brooklynella. These two fishes have these diseases too often not to go ahead and treat them.

So, 'No.' Don't treat the fish unless you can see something wrong and then, only treat for that specific ailment.

Don't be too concerned about 'missing the disease.' Marine Ich is not that fast a killer. You'll have time to launch a treatment for it, when and if you see it. Just remember to closely observe your fish at least twice a day.

You're lucky that they are eating. Keep things as they are. Good luck!

 

[brent-konieczny]

Today I got ich with a brand new clown. He got it in a few hours. Is this normal? Also, his color has greatly faded. Does this symptom often accompany ich?

 

[leebca]

Diagnosis is very important. Are you sure it is Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)?

Besides the salt-sized spots there are other symptoms. You should read up on it:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html
and. . .
Steven Proââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s article on Marine Ich (Part 1):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
(Part 2):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

A just-acquired fish is a good candidate to bring the disease to your tank. Hence the need for quarantine.

 

[MGB]

So if an individual fish has an aquired immunity or is one of the small percent that is just naturally immune to ich, can this fish still carry the disease, thus infecting its tank mates and how does that work, does/can the parasite cycle on the immune fish without the fish becoming significantly impaired.
MGB

 

[leebca]

Not likely to have a 'natural immunity.' Probably the fish had been exposed to the disease and developed an immunity somewhere along its life in the reef, or along the handling path.

The concept that an immune fish carries the parasite has been a subject of few studies and many debates. The concept of 'immunity' says either you are, or you aren't. Like, there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant.

Another aspect to try and grasp is the mechanism of the immunity, also subject to debates and few studies. Antibodies seem to be present which attacks proteins in the parasite. Some seem to be able to prevent the parasite from attaching.

What I have found is that some fish are just not overwhelmed by low numbers of the disease. I don't know why. They carry it and in a captive environment, bring it into an aquarium and literally wipe out the entire population (sometimes even themselves). It goes back to the idea that too many parasites and even the carrier will succumb.

Technically, if the fish is immune, it does not have or carry the parasite.

 

[MGB]

So basically no fish is ever "safe", immune or not, it could be just a ticking bomb,never showing symptoms but never the less still carrying the parasite, probably in low numbers but ever ready to bloom given the differences of the captive enviroment.
On a related note, I might be completely off base here, but somehow I get the feeling that there's still a majority of people who still don't quarentine, inspite of the overwhelming evidence that if you don't its just a matter of time and fish before you have to deal with a parasitic outbreak/heartbreak. MGB

 

[TerryB]

I do routinely treat new fish with hyposalinity. You do have to keep an eye on the water quality, especially the pH in hypo. However, I don't just use hyposalinity as a proactive approach to handling ich. I think it does help with some types of gill flukes and black ich. A major reason that I treat recently transported fish is to help them recover from the stress of transport and handling. I believe they regain osmotic balance (osmotic dysfunction is inherent to stress in fish) more quickly in hypo and probably eat sooner as a result. There is also reason to believe that hyposalinity helps the fish conserve energy that would otherwise be expended in osmoregulation. Think of it this way: when you are sick you need to conserve energy so you stay in bed and sleep more. This may not be the best example, but fish have a limited amount of metabloic energy. Since most fish haven't eaten for a while before they are transported and they tend not to eat for a while after they arrive I think that makes it all the more important to conserve metablolic energy.

Sadly, you are probably right that most people don't quarantine. Many have to learn the hard way by killing some fish before they understand the importance of quarantine.

Terry B

 

[Freed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6769098#post6769098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB

Many have to learn the hard way by killing some fish before they understand the importance of quarantine.

Terry B

Reading alot of threads on the topic of QT, some never do get the hint even after they do kill a tank full of fish from not using proper QT.

 

[leebca]

Regarding. . .

So basically no fish is ever "safe", immune or not, it could be just a ticking bomb,never showing symptoms. . .

The thing is there is real immunity. But even a fish who has attained immunity, doesn't keep it for too long.

Fish immunity isn't like human immunity. Theirs seems to be exposure/time related. An immune fish usually looses its immunity with time, unless repeatedly exposed to the parasite.

It is the above logic which gives some aquarists cause to say, 'Then the best procedure is not to QT but keep putting the disease into the tank to keep their immunity up.' I think you can see the harshness of such an approach.

There are always testimonials of aquarists who claim they have never used a QT procedure and after Y years their tanks are disease-free. This gives hope to those who don't want to do it. But the truly experienced and intelligent aquarist realizes that it was only a matter of luck (or they are keeping fish particularly hardy and resistant to the parasite).

Sadly, many aquarists still don't use a quarantine process, even after like Freed has stated, they have evidence of its benefit.

I partly blame the people who 'sell' the marine hobby. The would-be aquarist asks the retailer what is needed to have an X gallon tank and no one ever mentions, 'Oh by the way, if you want to keep marine specimens, you'll need another tank and setup for quarantine. So the person gets into the hobby and finds he has to spend more money and time than planned.

Too bad marine aquarium packages aren't sold that include a QT!

 

[leebca]

As an add-on to the above post. . .

There was a poll done here at RC to see how many people quarantine ALL their new fishes:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=3977

 

[Freed]

I'm in there on the first page. WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!

 

[Freed]

Leebca, today I noticed that someone sprinkled some salt on my Copperband when I wasn't looking. Just a few specs on his main side fins. My water reads like this: SG-1.027 alk-8.3dkh pH-8.1-8.3 or so and temp-76.6

I am in the process of raising the temp to around 80-82 and will take a few days to do it.

Am also going to be lowering the salinity but I need to know how far to take it down. I will aim towards 1.015 but am not sure where to stop so please let me know. I do use a calibrated refractometer so no worries that my measurement is off.

I just bought some Garlic Guard by Seachem and will soak the food in this before offering it to them.

I also have the 6 line wrasse in the QT tank as well but I can't get a good look at him to see as he is very skiddish and won't stay still. They are both eating just fine and are fat and sassy so no worries there either.

Any other recommendations? Please feel free to let me know. Thanks, Jeff

 

[leebca]

Jeff,

Keep the temperature at whatever the fish are used to. Marine Ich doesn't change its cycle rate much with a rise in temperature. Higher temperatures mean less dissolved gases in the water, which IS a downside.

I perform hyposalinity treatments at a salinity of 11ppt. I press the MI organisms. I haven't found any fish yet that this is a problem with, but if yours does show bad signs at this salinity, bump it up to 12ppt.

You can assist in the decrease of infecting, free-swimming Theronts by vacuuming out the tank and decorations twice a day (just after lights go on and just before lights go out).

Remember that the hyposalinity treatment is slow. Hyposalinity stresses MI and, like stress on fishes, a few get by once in a while. However, hyposalinity treatment is the easiest on the fish.

After you see the last spot on your fish, keep treating for 4 more weeks, then slowly raise the salinity to normal. Once at normal, leave the fish in quarantine another 3 weeks to verify your treatment was a success.

All fish from the infected tank have to be treated, whether you see or think they have MI or not.

Know the difference between salinity and specific gravity and use salinity for your target:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/specificgravity.html

Hold that salinity in check religiously. If your QT evaporates fairly quickly, check salinity three or four times a day and make adjustments. A single slip up and you're back to ground zero.

One of the biggest challenges is keeping the pH stable and in the right zone. Be prepared to make pH readings/tests as often as you check the salinity, AND be prepared to adjust it (pH+ additives).

Garlic is not a cure and I'd rather use additives more important than that. Soak the foods in vitamin and fat additives and add beta glucan to the food during this recovery time.

Good luck! :rollface:

 

[Freed]

What is MI? What about soaking in "Reef Plus" by Seachem. It has amino acids and vitamins for coral growth and other reef creatures. Don't know if that is what you are talking about but it is what I have on hand.

Also have Kent Marine "Essential Elements". Essential trace mineral supplements for reef and fish only marine aqueriums.

 

[leebca]

Sorry. I abbreviate sometimes. MI = Marine Ich.

Vitamins & Fats (for fish):
Vita-Chem
Selcon (fats)
Selco
Zoe
Zoecon (fats)

The products you mentioned are not fish food supplements/additives. They are water conditioners/additives. The above list are food-soak products. They are just a sampling.