Another Ich question
- Thread starter MGB
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Freed
It's what it's
Leebca, I just thought of something. I also have a dead plate coral in the same QT with babies growing all over it. Will the hyposalinity hurt them or even worse kill them? If so, what should I do with the plate corals? Would it be safe to put in one of my display tanks? I don't think it would be but you know more than I do about the transfer of ich and fish/corals than I do so let me know what you think. I always QT everything and this coral was undergoing QT when I put the fish in with it. Thanks, Jeff
Inverts can't handle the hyposalinity. Living corals will usually die and that will create a big problem in the QT.
Transferring the plate coral to the display may bring with it (in the water or attached to the coral) the MI parasite. BUT, that is okay IF your display is fishless. If your display is MI free and contains fish, then you don't want to do that.
Take the coral and put it into another small aquarium or plastic container. Provide the coral with proper light, water quality, and food, but keep it in quarantine at least 6 weeks, preferably 8.
Transferring the plate coral to the display may bring with it (in the water or attached to the coral) the MI parasite. BUT, that is okay IF your display is fishless. If your display is MI free and contains fish, then you don't want to do that.
Take the coral and put it into another small aquarium or plastic container. Provide the coral with proper light, water quality, and food, but keep it in quarantine at least 6 weeks, preferably 8.
tokitay
New member
Leebca,
Is it possible to have MI in a tank, with the fish infested, but absolutely no outwards signs? Reason I ask is that a few of our fish (queen angel, radiant wrasse, and a bird nose wrasse) all play this game of follow the leader where they will swim in a line and then buffet themselves in the sand one after another.
We have never seen any sign of ich, all the fish are healthy, eat well, and any new additions get QT. I am wondering are they exhibiting this behavior because they are uncomfortable, or infested, and we do not know it?
Is it possible to have MI in a tank, with the fish infested, but absolutely no outwards signs? Reason I ask is that a few of our fish (queen angel, radiant wrasse, and a bird nose wrasse) all play this game of follow the leader where they will swim in a line and then buffet themselves in the sand one after another.
We have never seen any sign of ich, all the fish are healthy, eat well, and any new additions get QT. I am wondering are they exhibiting this behavior because they are uncomfortable, or infested, and we do not know it?
MI prefers to infest the gills. -- Out of sight. But it isn't likely to stay there in a closed aquarium. It would spread and fairly soon show itself.
If by 'buffet' you mean flashing, or scratching. . .fish do this now and then. If it occurs too frequently, there is most likely something irritating their gill. These irritants include water quality issues, bacterial, and/or (not only) disease.
How much is too much? Good question. I guess I have my own standards that I go by. If my fish flashes more than 4 times in an hour, then something is suspect. When the fish flashes more than 4 times in 15 minutes, there definitely is a problem.
If by 'buffet' you mean flashing, or scratching. . .fish do this now and then. If it occurs too frequently, there is most likely something irritating their gill. These irritants include water quality issues, bacterial, and/or (not only) disease.
How much is too much? Good question. I guess I have my own standards that I go by. If my fish flashes more than 4 times in an hour, then something is suspect. When the fish flashes more than 4 times in 15 minutes, there definitely is a problem.
Freed
It's what it's
Leebca, so over the last 2 or 3 days I have brought my SG down from 1.027 to 1.021 by changing about 1-2 gallons of water a day and replacing with fresh RO/DI. Is this too fast of a drop or should I be dropping it faster to get down to 1.009-1.015 with a ppt of 11? The copperband only has a few salt spots on his tail and the 6 line has only one on his right wing. Looking better. Have been vacuuming the bottom of alot of the detritus that has accumulated over the last several months.
Lee,
Can you please describe how ich physically look on the infected fish. I have seen lot of photos of largely infected fish but what does a miled infection looks like. I have posted a help trend earlier about a Blue Tang - Paracanthurus hepatus. She stayed at the LFS for 3 weeks to make sure she was healthy. No signs of ich and good color. So I brought her home performed a 15 minute fresh water dip mixed with Methylene Blue. Placed her in a 5 gal hospital hyposalinity with Seachem Cupramine Copper at about 15-20 mg/l. I perform daily RO water change 25-50% depending tank condition. Tank is bare bottom, with heater couple PVC'c and Penguin BIO-Wheel Power Filter minus carbon filter. She has been in the tank for 15 days. She is very shy but eating very well. This morning I woke her up to feed her and I saw some small white spots behind her eye and one in her mid section it looked like a scratch or missing scale it does not stick out like salt crystal. I am puzzled after all this time in quarantine is it possible of this being Ich? This afternoon feeding time the dots where not as prominent. She is not rubbing or itching. I need your opinion on what could these dots be? And need clarification on how does ich physically look on the skin. Please help I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to keep her there more than I have to.
Thanks!
Can you please describe how ich physically look on the infected fish. I have seen lot of photos of largely infected fish but what does a miled infection looks like. I have posted a help trend earlier about a Blue Tang - Paracanthurus hepatus. She stayed at the LFS for 3 weeks to make sure she was healthy. No signs of ich and good color. So I brought her home performed a 15 minute fresh water dip mixed with Methylene Blue. Placed her in a 5 gal hospital hyposalinity with Seachem Cupramine Copper at about 15-20 mg/l. I perform daily RO water change 25-50% depending tank condition. Tank is bare bottom, with heater couple PVC'c and Penguin BIO-Wheel Power Filter minus carbon filter. She has been in the tank for 15 days. She is very shy but eating very well. This morning I woke her up to feed her and I saw some small white spots behind her eye and one in her mid section it looked like a scratch or missing scale it does not stick out like salt crystal. I am puzzled after all this time in quarantine is it possible of this being Ich? This afternoon feeding time the dots where not as prominent. She is not rubbing or itching. I need your opinion on what could these dots be? And need clarification on how does ich physically look on the skin. Please help I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to keep her there more than I have to.
Thanks!
janakaybravo
New member
Good question. Sometimes I wonder if one spot could be ich. But hypo and copper both at the same time in a five gallon? You have to be very careful about the water. Did I read that right?
Memo,
Unfortunately, it only takes one visible spot to make the infection. The problem is what you don't see (in the gills) or have missed in other places on the fish.
There are other conditions and diseases which cause aberrations on the surface of the fish. Then, like you wrote, there are also possibilities of injury. There is no 'black-and-white' call, in my opinion. But, that is the reason for the quarantine. You are there to observe the fish for no less than 6 weeks.
Then, your fish could be reacting to the treatment/medication. 15-20 mg/l is 15-20 ppm. My Cupramine bottle says to hold the concentration between 0.5 and 0.6 ppm. So I would question whether or not you were medicating properly and that you were using the Seachem copper test kit to control the copper content. You indicated the fish in QT has been there 15 days, so I assume the treatment is over? You have removed the copper from the QT?
Like some chemicals can 'burn' people, there are those chemicals that harm a fish's surface. Such a small quarantine tank (QT) is not too good. Water quality control can be a problem. Even a small increase in ammonia (like right after feeding) can overwhelm the bio-system temporarily. This will expose the fish to varying levels of ammonia and nitrites, of which you might not even be aware. So part of what you my be seeing could also be a reaction to short-lived excursions in water quality
Regarding Marine Ich and time. . .Like I've written before, you are never sure your fish doesn't have MI until after observing it for 6 weeks. The MI cyst can survive up to 6 weeks before 'getting the urge' to release the infecting, free-swimming Theronts. Even if the fish looks 'clean' at time of purchase, the water it came in or a hidden gill Trophont can still start a disease outbreak --- slowly but surely.
Unfortunately, it only takes one visible spot to make the infection. The problem is what you don't see (in the gills) or have missed in other places on the fish.
There are other conditions and diseases which cause aberrations on the surface of the fish. Then, like you wrote, there are also possibilities of injury. There is no 'black-and-white' call, in my opinion. But, that is the reason for the quarantine. You are there to observe the fish for no less than 6 weeks.
Then, your fish could be reacting to the treatment/medication. 15-20 mg/l is 15-20 ppm. My Cupramine bottle says to hold the concentration between 0.5 and 0.6 ppm. So I would question whether or not you were medicating properly and that you were using the Seachem copper test kit to control the copper content. You indicated the fish in QT has been there 15 days, so I assume the treatment is over? You have removed the copper from the QT?
Like some chemicals can 'burn' people, there are those chemicals that harm a fish's surface. Such a small quarantine tank (QT) is not too good. Water quality control can be a problem. Even a small increase in ammonia (like right after feeding) can overwhelm the bio-system temporarily. This will expose the fish to varying levels of ammonia and nitrites, of which you might not even be aware. So part of what you my be seeing could also be a reaction to short-lived excursions in water quality
Regarding Marine Ich and time. . .Like I've written before, you are never sure your fish doesn't have MI until after observing it for 6 weeks. The MI cyst can survive up to 6 weeks before 'getting the urge' to release the infecting, free-swimming Theronts. Even if the fish looks 'clean' at time of purchase, the water it came in or a hidden gill Trophont can still start a disease outbreak --- slowly but surely.
Lee
Thank you very much for your reply. As all ways great information. No treatment is not over the fish is still in quarantine tank and is still under SeaCure Copper Treatment medication 2 drops per gal. as indicated on the bottle. I monitor copper levels daily with Fast test as suggested by SeaCure. Copper level has been between .15-20 mostly on the higher side of the 15 of the color chart but not passed 20. I also have a 20 gal pre mixed RO water circulating at 1.009-1.010 specific gravity from which I perform 25 to 50% water daily changes to the hospital tank. Where I am confused and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t understand is this fish has been in the LFS for 3-4 weeks in their medicate tanks. I accept the fact there are fish going in and out of the tank all the time possibly contaminating the LFS holding tank. Please correct me if I am off base here if the LFS holding tanks are medicated any incoming new MI with fish should be incapacitated by the copper. My basic logic on this issue is MI comes in with the new fish then MI drops from the infected fish to find a new host and gets zapped by copper or by UV.
Second part of the equation is I bring this fish home perform a Methylene Blue dip and place it in a hyposalinity hospital tank with copper and perform water changes. 2.5 weeks down the road I see white spots on the fish while it is in copper. You indicated MI cyst can live up to 6 weeks. During this cyst stage while infecting the gills is copper effective? If it is not effective then we may be back to square one for treatments.
I examined the fish under bright lights and the white spots do not protrude out they are flat to concave by the eye where the black stripe meets. Is MI physically bumps? I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to release her in my display tank at the same time I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to keep her in the hospital tank with copper no more than I have to. I feel like I may be putting this poor fish in unnecessary stress keeping him in the hospital tank for another 6 weeks possibly longer. She may survive the MI but die of stress. I am trying to make an educated decision that hopefully with good out come. Thank you for all the valuable information you provide us.
Thanks
Memo
Thank you very much for your reply. As all ways great information. No treatment is not over the fish is still in quarantine tank and is still under SeaCure Copper Treatment medication 2 drops per gal. as indicated on the bottle. I monitor copper levels daily with Fast test as suggested by SeaCure. Copper level has been between .15-20 mostly on the higher side of the 15 of the color chart but not passed 20. I also have a 20 gal pre mixed RO water circulating at 1.009-1.010 specific gravity from which I perform 25 to 50% water daily changes to the hospital tank. Where I am confused and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t understand is this fish has been in the LFS for 3-4 weeks in their medicate tanks. I accept the fact there are fish going in and out of the tank all the time possibly contaminating the LFS holding tank. Please correct me if I am off base here if the LFS holding tanks are medicated any incoming new MI with fish should be incapacitated by the copper. My basic logic on this issue is MI comes in with the new fish then MI drops from the infected fish to find a new host and gets zapped by copper or by UV.
Second part of the equation is I bring this fish home perform a Methylene Blue dip and place it in a hyposalinity hospital tank with copper and perform water changes. 2.5 weeks down the road I see white spots on the fish while it is in copper. You indicated MI cyst can live up to 6 weeks. During this cyst stage while infecting the gills is copper effective? If it is not effective then we may be back to square one for treatments.
I examined the fish under bright lights and the white spots do not protrude out they are flat to concave by the eye where the black stripe meets. Is MI physically bumps? I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to release her in my display tank at the same time I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to keep her in the hospital tank with copper no more than I have to. I feel like I may be putting this poor fish in unnecessary stress keeping him in the hospital tank for another 6 weeks possibly longer. She may survive the MI but die of stress. I am trying to make an educated decision that hopefully with good out come. Thank you for all the valuable information you provide us.
Thanks
Memo
Sorry Memo. I thought you had posted you used Cupramine. . .I think you're using the SeaCure properly, but it isn't a particularly 'friendly' copper product. I've 'burned' my fish with that one. Anyway. . .
No one will perform a quarantine process as well as the individual aquarist. The LFS is primarily interested in fish that don't appear ill. Whether they harbor disease or not, is not their primary goal. So long as the perception is that their fish are healthy, that is all it takes to sell them. I know this sounds harsh, but. . .they are in business and the LFS is a business. Let's say the LFS was altruistic and really only sold healthy fish. Then wouldn't they provide a guarantee of 10-14 days with provisions on your water quality and tank conditions? Anyway. . .
The point of the above is how do you know that the LFS kept the copper at the right level all the time? You know from what you've written, how important that is. I'm sorry, but I don't trust anyone as much as I trust myself, with test data in hand, and in control. So the LFS keeping a fish for 14+ days doesn't mean that much to me EXCEPT that the fish is eating, appears nourished, looks good, not psycho, looks like it is aware of what's going on (not spaced out) and its surroundings, came through proper or reasonably proper acclimation procedures, etc.
You can be sneaky (like me). I test the water my fish arrive in for a variety of things. Test it for copper and see for yourself what level it is (without telling your LFS). Get water form your LFS tank and tell them it is to test for salinity, pH, etc. (but really test it for copper).
You are absolutely right about the LFS stock coming and going. The fish was NOT held in quarantine -- it was just held while fishes with diseases came and went around it. Your fish was never really separated from those other fishes. What would happen during your treatment if in the middle you added new fish? or kept adding new fish once every 5 days or so? You would never ever finish treating your fish, because the treatment is for 14 days. The LFS isn't too concerned about constant exposure to the copper because he/she hopes to sell the fish within that time frame. If not. . .Another one bites the dust.
So to address your first question. . .You are basically correct. The copper will keep beating up on the free-swimming, infectious Theronts. The other stages of the disease are not affected by copper. While it is on the fish, the fish mucous layer protects the parasite. The probability of you getting a 'clean' fish from your LFS IF he/she maintained therapeutic copper levels is good, but there is a chance, with the coming and going of fishes that your fish picked up a lone parasite that got to the fish before it got killed by the copper, or made it to a UV unit.
Don't put too much faith in what the LFS does in the way of copper treatment. There are dozens of fish ailments, conditions, and diseases. Copper treats only two primary diseases. You don't want the LFS process to reduce or change your quarantine process -- 6 weeks observation in quarantine minimum.
Your dip is good because it can help remove or at least give problems to organisms that affect the fish's gills. The dip can also reduce the chances of Marine Velvet, and potentially give difficulties to any attached micro-worms, etc. to the body. The Methylene Blue will counter some ammonia affects in the transport bag (but likely not much in the case your LFS is close), and provide an easier time for respiration. But that is no guarantee either, especially if any of the LFS water made it to your tank.
MI parasite burrows into the fish and is protected by the mucous membrane. The added complication to this parasite cycle is that a tiny Theront that has burrowed into the fish is not seen by the humane eye. Once that Theront gorges itself and becomes 'pregnant' then we see it. So there is the complication of a fish newly infected, but invisible to us. What we see is usually a raised area the size of a grain of salt, although several Trophonts can appear together to be larger. Some spots may be a bit smaller at they 'grow.' When the fish turns to face you, you would normally see the spots raised from the surface of the fish. But early Trophonts can be very shallow/short/'nonprotruding'.
If you've finished the copper treatment (according to the time) then stop the copper treatment. Watch/observe your fish. If you can, photo it and post it in a new thread for us to look at. What you've described is not normally how MI looks.
You're welcome! And sorry for the lengthy post.
No one will perform a quarantine process as well as the individual aquarist. The LFS is primarily interested in fish that don't appear ill. Whether they harbor disease or not, is not their primary goal. So long as the perception is that their fish are healthy, that is all it takes to sell them. I know this sounds harsh, but. . .they are in business and the LFS is a business. Let's say the LFS was altruistic and really only sold healthy fish. Then wouldn't they provide a guarantee of 10-14 days with provisions on your water quality and tank conditions? Anyway. . .
The point of the above is how do you know that the LFS kept the copper at the right level all the time? You know from what you've written, how important that is. I'm sorry, but I don't trust anyone as much as I trust myself, with test data in hand, and in control. So the LFS keeping a fish for 14+ days doesn't mean that much to me EXCEPT that the fish is eating, appears nourished, looks good, not psycho, looks like it is aware of what's going on (not spaced out) and its surroundings, came through proper or reasonably proper acclimation procedures, etc.
You can be sneaky (like me). I test the water my fish arrive in for a variety of things. Test it for copper and see for yourself what level it is (without telling your LFS). Get water form your LFS tank and tell them it is to test for salinity, pH, etc. (but really test it for copper).
You are absolutely right about the LFS stock coming and going. The fish was NOT held in quarantine -- it was just held while fishes with diseases came and went around it. Your fish was never really separated from those other fishes. What would happen during your treatment if in the middle you added new fish? or kept adding new fish once every 5 days or so? You would never ever finish treating your fish, because the treatment is for 14 days. The LFS isn't too concerned about constant exposure to the copper because he/she hopes to sell the fish within that time frame. If not. . .Another one bites the dust.
So to address your first question. . .You are basically correct. The copper will keep beating up on the free-swimming, infectious Theronts. The other stages of the disease are not affected by copper. While it is on the fish, the fish mucous layer protects the parasite. The probability of you getting a 'clean' fish from your LFS IF he/she maintained therapeutic copper levels is good, but there is a chance, with the coming and going of fishes that your fish picked up a lone parasite that got to the fish before it got killed by the copper, or made it to a UV unit.
Don't put too much faith in what the LFS does in the way of copper treatment. There are dozens of fish ailments, conditions, and diseases. Copper treats only two primary diseases. You don't want the LFS process to reduce or change your quarantine process -- 6 weeks observation in quarantine minimum.
Your dip is good because it can help remove or at least give problems to organisms that affect the fish's gills. The dip can also reduce the chances of Marine Velvet, and potentially give difficulties to any attached micro-worms, etc. to the body. The Methylene Blue will counter some ammonia affects in the transport bag (but likely not much in the case your LFS is close), and provide an easier time for respiration. But that is no guarantee either, especially if any of the LFS water made it to your tank.
MI parasite burrows into the fish and is protected by the mucous membrane. The added complication to this parasite cycle is that a tiny Theront that has burrowed into the fish is not seen by the humane eye. Once that Theront gorges itself and becomes 'pregnant' then we see it. So there is the complication of a fish newly infected, but invisible to us. What we see is usually a raised area the size of a grain of salt, although several Trophonts can appear together to be larger. Some spots may be a bit smaller at they 'grow.' When the fish turns to face you, you would normally see the spots raised from the surface of the fish. But early Trophonts can be very shallow/short/'nonprotruding'.
If you've finished the copper treatment (according to the time) then stop the copper treatment. Watch/observe your fish. If you can, photo it and post it in a new thread for us to look at. What you've described is not normally how MI looks.
You're welcome! And sorry for the lengthy post.
Lee
Thanks for the reply. Can you please elaborate on " I've 'burned' my fish with that one" Do I take that as skin burns/rash? Or fish grew wings. You are on the money about LFS. They are there to make money and fish is a commodity that they trade. If copper does not affect all stages of MI I would fear the worst. I was hoping I overly medicated her and gave her a rash ('burned'). I will take some photos tonight. Again thank you so kindly for all the information.
Memo
Thanks for the reply. Can you please elaborate on " I've 'burned' my fish with that one" Do I take that as skin burns/rash? Or fish grew wings. You are on the money about LFS. They are there to make money and fish is a commodity that they trade. If copper does not affect all stages of MI I would fear the worst. I was hoping I overly medicated her and gave her a rash ('burned'). I will take some photos tonight. Again thank you so kindly for all the information.
Memo
I sometimes exercise my 'dry' humor. Sorry. I have helped fish over to fight evil in another dimension (e.g., died), and I have poisoned fish. The poisoned fish can develop a bad case of septicemia-like symptoms which has the appearance of being scraped or what human children might call a skinned knee appearance.
Remember to post those photos in a new thread.
Remember to post those photos in a new thread.
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