Antibiotic treatment will kill the biofilter bacteria in QT, what to use?

[dendro982]

I spend two days, trying to find how to use antibiotics for a fish treatment properly, all the sources say: not to use in the main tank, it will kill biofilter's bacteria, use the quarantine/hospital tank.

Well, antibiotic should kill the bacteria in QT's biofilter too. How to keep the fish without bifiltration for a two weeks? Water changes by new saltwater every day? No nitrifying bacteria there. From the main tank - such big water changes may destroy the equlibrium, carefully buit for a long time.

What do I miss, how it should be done?

Thanks.

P.S. Big filefish, 30g QT, 90g main tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Kanamycin, neomycin and erythromycin do not wipe out nitrification bacteria but depress them somewhat. You would detect trace of nitrite. If your bioload is light for the filiter (if the filter has high nitrification capacity to start), chances are that you would be OK. Plus after water change the bacteria generally recover quickly. Test water for ammonia frequently and have a bottle of Amquel ready.

Chloromycetin is deadly on nitrification bacteria and will wipe them out.

 

[dendro982]

Check my course of actions and correct me, please:
- Quarantine tank, 30g, filled half and half new water and old water from the main tank, or 1/3 and 2/3.

- Established biomedia from the sump of the main tank, kept there for emergencies, like this (Matrix stones - 500 ml for 100 gal, according to the label - and sponges), will be placed in the QT in the flow. Below intake of powerhead.

- Power filter will not fit (wide rim), so sponge filter will be used. Will think, how to use powerhead for a flow into the micron sock, changed daily. Something better?

- Water changes 20% once a week, as usual. The fish is not eating now. Or some water changes after each dose of antibiotic, daily?

This is my first time with the sick fish, need any input.

Thank you.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Are your fish currently showing signs of external bacterial infection?

Fish not eating is not good.

You need all the nitrification capacity you can garner.

If power filter won't fit (why?), use powerhead to push water thru filter medium.

Better yet, a makeshift wet-dry is easy. Attach a hose to powerhead. Use inert containers etc (coffee mugs) to form an elevated platform. Place filter medium on platform, and allow water from the other end of hose to cascade thru the medium. Make sure you secure the loose end of the hose. Water only 2/3 filled in QT may help. The nitrification capacity is max this way. Gaseous exchange is also very good this way.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you for the input!

The thread with close-up photos of my filefish, asked for diagnosis and what to do, is here.
The fish is not eating for more than a month, may be some xenia in the tank (I have a little forest). Tried the favorite food, food with garlic or selcon added, live food (ghost shrimp) since beginning of hunger strike. Still doesn't eating. The thread was posted, when I noticed the shades near the eyes and below the mouth (you can see them on full body shot). So far few days of noticeable changes.

Now it is continue losing weight, started to have fins rot: tail fin is ragged at the end, 1/8-1/4"" only, no black border; anal fin and the rest of the caudal fin have some recessed tissue, black bordered, as you can see on these photos:

Looks like fin rot.

I didn't noticed the external signs too long - the tail is always in pointed state, it opens only for turns and stretching, this is usual for a hovering fish. And the black translucent border is barely seen...
Same with losing weight - hard to notice on a haired fish, and I was reluctant to treat the seemingly healthy fish on hunger strike, especially from unknown cause. This doesn't matter now, anyway.

Another complication, behavioral this time, is that this fish is big, 10-12 ", shy and panics very easily, and will hurt itself at the rock in this state. I moved it once, to the big tank, and had to remove all rock and hardware from the tank and use the full-tank net to lift it. Fish was stressed anyway.

Because of this, I started to treat the whole 90g tank with Melafix and Pimafix, half-dose as for sensitive fish, added gradually. Skimmer is off, two wooden airstones were added. Unfortunately, oxygen test kit is on back order.

Today will be the 4th day of treatment, after the first day the fish started behave slightly more as usual, the white border at the tail end disappeared. Still not eating for too long.

A few days more - and the fish will have to go in the hospital tank, 28g translucent rubbermaid container with wide rim. Will be treated with Kanamycin for a fin rot and possibly tuberculosis (emaciation), and as the best universal wide-spectrum antibiotic for a marine fish. What would you do in this situation?

Will set biomedia there, as you advised. Hose is the output from powerhead, right? Should be water be changed partially every second day or once a week, as usual?

Any advice on what else can be done will be highly appreciated.

 

[dendro982]

Sorry, me again. Kind of emergency.

Fish is in QT on kanamycin now.
Antibiotic does affect the biofilter, have 0.25 ppm ammonia. Changed water, replaced biomedia by another established one, from the different tank, still the same.

No overdosing, the flow from a small pump blows onto the biomedia, that should be enough for 80g tank, according to manufacturer. Plus the DIY sponge filter (the sponge is from the sump of a main tank, was there for a several months).

What are you doing for your hospital tanks?
I will be soon out of established biomedia and old tank water, and the irritated gills are the last thing that the sick fish needs Dosing Prime so far.

 

[Spracklcat]

Big water changes are the key here The kanamycin is going to kill your denitrifying bacteria as you said (plus you don't have nearly the biofilter in one sponge as you did in your whole tank) , so the only way to keep your ammonia down is by dilution. I'd change at least some water daily (use your ammonia test as a guide) and do so right before you redose your antibiotic. Don't be afraid to do 100% water changes--

 

[dendro982]

I did them twice yesterday:
- first time in the morning, ammonia readings 0.5ppm, but could be slight antibiotic overdose - made leveled measuring spoon by moving it along the curved container. Never again - by flat object only, my fault.

Removed 1/2 water, then partial water changes, without exposing fish to the air, until the all 20g (2/3 of the 30g rubbermaid container) of a new water were used.
Impossible, but the readings were again 0.5 ppm of ammonia (API kit, good BTW, all other tanks show 0 ppm. New water ammonia is 0 ppm too). The fish started to turn upside down. Moved it on reanimation in the main tank - it is too big for any other tank.

- Removed all water and biomedia, washed, filled by 3/4 of the old tank water, 1/4 of the new water, ammonia 0 ppm, added fish again and antibiotic, 2.5 hrs later - 0.25 ppm ammonia. No food, just fish.

Added another established biomedia, not used for QT before, flow is pointed on it, and half dose of Prime. After that continue to be all the same for 8 hrs, no rising, no lowering.
Today in the morning - the same, the fish is disoriented, but not upside down, added another half dose of Prime (it's biodegradable in 24 hrs). No changes (test should give ammonia readings, ignoring Prime, but it means, that biomedia is not doing its work).

Tearing hair off. The fish is still not eating.

Will change water again at midday - 24 hrs after the previous change. Will use old tank water again. Possibly, partial water changes, without removing the fish. It is stressed already too much.
Will add Seachem Stability (dormant bacterial culture) and BA Bio-Support (same purpose, but live bacteria, at least bottle label says so), most likely.

Thank you, and more advices are very welcome.

 

[Spracklcat]

I'm no expert but at this point maybe the ammonia reading your getting is a cross reaction with your medication? Anyone know if this is possible?

 

[dendro982]

Situation normalized to a some degree:
- still ammonia 0.25ppm by API test, neutralized to less harmful compounds by Seachem Prime, at least it should work this way (about chemistry of the process), added initial dose of Seachem Stability (bacteria) in the midday.

- what is more important, fish behaves less erratically, less collisions with the walls, more tranquil time, even tried to eat from the feeding device (rigid airline with fish line attached), but couldn't swallow - interferes with breathing, spits out.

- I'm dosing kanamycin in form of KanaPlex, that should be dosed once in two days and at maximum of 3 doses. Any experience with kanamycin, will it be enough? Other sources say all antibiotics for 10 days, in case of tuberculosis - kanamycin for 30 days.

Some photos.
First setup, wooden airstone below the Matrix biomedia:

Now, sponge filter and small pump, sponges behind and below, blowing onto basket with mixed ceramic biomedia, all established, of course:

Fish is very thin behind the belly, below and starting at spine column. Also between eyes and below the mouth:

On the last photo with some imagination you can see spine above the muscles. Not the easiest fish for observations.

Will change water partially (not to disturb the fish) by old water from the main tank, mixed with new water, 1:1. Know, that this is not recommended, but I already described in previous post, what happened, if change on the new water only.

Thanks for the input.
Could be anything, of course, I'm trying to find out, what else to do for a better.

 

[Puffer Queen]

What were you feeding this tasseled file?

How long have you had this fish?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Was the nitrification capacity of your medium high to start with? Was it very thoroughly cycled? How was it cycled?

There doesn't appear to be very much medium for the size of fish.

I have used kanamycin numerous times without any problem, but I always very thorougly cycle my medium with bacteria seed and repeated added ammonia.

I always anticipate the need to use kanamycin or neomycin, so I always cycle my medium very well. They will depress but not wipe out nitrification bacteria. One needs high nitification capacity to spare for this situation.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you all for the support and help!

The fish was put asleep two hours ago, after 12 known (observed) hours of dying - not moving, even side fins, only slightly breathing, on the side, with belly being higher, then the back.

No more fish.

This tassled filefish was young - bought very small in February 2006, 1.5 yrs only. Volitan Lioness had the similar fish for 8 years.

The food was as diverse, as I could get: raw thawed grocery shrimp, salmon, cod, pollock, baby octopi, squid, baby cuttlefish, nori and Julian Sprung Sea Veggies, krill, mysis, Ocean Plankton, Marine Cuisine. On dessert: Formula Two flake and pellets, Kent ChromaExtreme and Reef carnivore pellets. Live gut loaded ghost shrimp, may be 1 in a month, escaped from lionfish.

Fed 3 times daily.

May be I forgot something, but practically anything I could find from the list, posted by Volitan Lioness, only of saltwater origin, and what the Fuzzy agreed to eat. Dulse and purple sea weed from oriental store were refused, mussels and perch too.

Stopped eating gradually, starting from ~ August 3, when the another big fish in the tank - mombasa lion - jumped out of the tank unnoticed. It was the peak of heat, 32C outside, ~81.5F water in tank, and tank was without cover then. Last time was seen eating one, very small piece of krill, ~4 weeks ago.

The main tank and QT are grounded, other fish of the same age is OK, tank parameters are usual (no ammonia, nitrites, 8-9 dKH alkalinity, pH 8.2, nitrates around 30 ppm and phosphates 0-0.25 ppm). Target temperature 79F, SG 1.026.

The biomedia - sponges and Seachem Matrix - was in the tanks' sumps for a several months, just as recommended for QT biomedia.

500 ml of the Matrix should support 100g tank, according to manufacturer. When display tanks started, more than 1.5 year ago and expanded to the 90g, 5 months later, they were seeded by Seachem Stability, according to instructions.

Corals in this tank are doing not bad, sun coral is spawning regularly, pom-pom xenia forest multiplies. Percula clown, valentini puffer (the same, that I asked about, with gap between the top teeth after the first dental surgery), blood shrimp and turbo-snail are as old as tassle filefish, always together, no signs of distress or disease, eating with appetite.

Summary:
- I will never buy another fish, after these two deaths.
- Will keep trice more biomedia in the sump of the big tank, for the emergencies.

By the way, at the forums I am posting alone, but two more responsible adults are involved in observations, how this tank is going, if I missed something - they shouldn't.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Puffer Queen]

Sorry for your loss.

Keeping a couple air driven sponge filters up and running in a bucket is a good idea for emergencies. Just add pure ammonia daily to cycle and keep cycled. Need to be cycled like any other filter or tank - (at least 3 weeks). Can monitor progress with test kits.

These will be pathogen free biological filters ready to be used in case of illness or new purchase.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you!
What amount of household use ammonia - 0.5 ppm daily? And will the 5g bucket setup be enough for 20g of hospital tank water (2/3 of the container volume)? What to use for a seeding - Stability, Bio-Support or another form of bacteria?

I still have one lionfish left - better to be prepared.
Couldn't imagine before, that the fish will be felt as a member of the family - in illness and the loss...

 

[Puffer Queen]

You could set up a couple of the air driven sponge filters in the bucket.....I usually add a drop per 10 gallons a day. Monitor water parameters daily to check to see if the filters cycled....they should cycle just like a new tank. Once they are cycled, make sure to keep adding the ammonia to keep the filters cycled.

For the 5 gallon bucket, you could still use a drop a day or every other day.

The ammonia is all you need to seed. No need for any other products.

Best of luck.

 

[Spracklcat]

Do take care though that you use pure ammonia if you use this method--most "household ammonias" have surfactants, colors or fragrances added which can be dangerous for your system. Read the label carefully!

 

[dendro982]

Thank you both! Will start tomorrow.

 

[kevin2000]

My 02

Many will simply keep some sponge filter media tucked away in their sumps or hidden behind some live rock in the show tank. This filter media becomes "mature" in couple of weeks and when placed in your QT power filter you get "instant cycled QT" .. no big deal/common method.

 

[dendro982]

I did that all the time, and used the media from the sump in this hospital tank (and others - quarantine tanks - successfully).

The separate cycling may give the uninfected filter, in case, if the serious problems arise in the main tank (knock on the wood, so far all was pretty normal).