Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Any way to get away with not doing water changes?
- Thread starter whatnot45
- Start date
Sohal Tang Tim
Member
Hi Glenn
Hi Glenn
Your right Glenn and I guess if the animal's needs can be 100% met without
water changes then waterever floats your boat...
However, we might consider this....just because an animal is healthy does not
mean it would not be *healthier* with water changes?
I dunno...just devils advocate I suppose... LIke I said saving water is good.
I think the other guy was saying that to each his own...nobody can say that
their way is better...its personal choice..and that I agree with.
:fun2:
Hi Glenn
Your right Glenn and I guess if the animal's needs can be 100% met without
water changes then waterever floats your boat...
However, we might consider this....just because an animal is healthy does not
mean it would not be *healthier* with water changes?
I dunno...just devils advocate I suppose... LIke I said saving water is good.
I think the other guy was saying that to each his own...nobody can say that
their way is better...its personal choice..and that I agree with.
:fun2:
jason2459
Well-known member
I believe it's accurate to give opinion of both sides. I like to keep everything in perspective and see the positives and negatives. Life isn't all black and white and certainly isn't in regards to maintaining a tank.
FWIW you still are the only successful person I know going with bare minimal water change. AKA no regular or periodic water changes just those in response to skimmer use and other water removal actions like flagging. I don't know if you harvest algae in some way?
vikinglord13
New member
I think it's important to note that there is a difference between doing water changes, and dosing, replenishing evaporated water, and siphoning.
Many are worried about dosing trace elements because they can be difficult to measure. Some are doing it quite successfully. People also forget that trace elements exist in fish food as well.
Many are worried about dosing trace elements because they can be difficult to measure. Some are doing it quite successfully. People also forget that trace elements exist in fish food as well.
jason2459
Well-known member
Yes many trace elements come in with different kinds of foods and algae. Like many heavy metals that you wouldn't want to build up in your tank. A water change is a simple way to help reduce those unwanted elements like Cu along with replenish some wanted ones.
There's many sources of trace elements. Wanted and unwanted.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/
And a good thread and articles linked to through out the thread to read through on heavy metals
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2104096
There's many sources of trace elements. Wanted and unwanted.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/
And a good thread and articles linked to through out the thread to read through on heavy metals
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2104096
Last edited:
..............
Oppinions are fine is any discussion, but lets make this about learning about new ways, not about what everybody already knows. There are tons of threads about the known ways.
Many people do things differently and are more or less succesfull, by condemning them they don't feel like sharing. Those stories are lost forever.
.................
I think you meant "The only one who bother taking it further than private knowledge".
Others have tried sharing their way, but did not get very far for a few reasons:
- Not enough wow factor.
- No enough long term result
- Limited coral population
- Not enough foundation to support their thoughts
- Not enough knowlegde to get into arguements
- Not enough time to spend
- No reason for of goal to archieve.
The main reason people don't share (or stop sharing) is the rain of negative response from people who don't appreciate their alternate/different/obstinate ways.
Nobody like being criticized, especially not when they mean well.
I don't use any algae filters, reactors, fluidizingbed or DSB.
Just a empty sump for skimmer, powerfilter, UV, Ozone.
The sump is to distribute water between 2 connected frag and "quarantine" tank.
Uv and ozone is primary to protect fish against parasites.
Happy Reefing, GlennF
Last edited:
lance1337
New member
He's an idiot.
That's why i don't bother spending time, money and energy dosing those heavy metals.
Untill proven what their functions are and how coral/live in the tank reacts on those element in case of deficit or surplus, i don't care much about measuring/dosing them.
As long as my corals look fine (now for quite a while without changes) i am happy with it.
The question arise : do most corals survive due to NSW or despite NSW values?
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1767171813496041&id=100006097179697
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/elevated-phosphate-reduces-coral-bleaching
Just saying:
one of the many assumption from the past is to have zero nutrients because of the mimicking NSW values.
Happy Reefing, GlennF
Last edited:
lance1337
New member
Of course...
Selling frag or skimming just make it more fun.
It balances the salinity just enough to make seemlesly without any need to remove water due to the use of the 2/3 part minerals
Happy Reefing, GlennF
Nice..
just fine to help with the creeping salinity of 2/3part elements
Happy Reefing, GlennF
It's just a way of reefing that fits your purpose/mood/wallet/situation/location.
Do what ever makes you happy...
If you're happy you will last longer in this addictive hobby.
Happy Reefing, GlennF
Sorry ... For that you need to use google..
I am not allowed to advertise my method.
Happy Reefing, GlennF
jason2459
Well-known member
Yes, I agree and is my point.
Not sure why the sarcasm or I assume the "Nice..." comment is. It was an in addition to post to the previous one.
Skimming inherently causes a water change at some level to occur. But further comments I state that it's a reaction not an action which someone can say they do no water changes. Then add item removal and potential 2 part increases. It's still not much.
However, if we're going to look at individual systems my tank skims out around 6-8 cups per day and it's on the dry side. That's almost 1 gallon every 2 days. Over time that adds up. If I were to skim on the wet side that's a considerable amount.
So, what is a water change and how much needs to be changed to be considered a water change? 1% a day? a month?
That elevated phosphate is also in response to having elevated temperatures.
ULNS is just another method how ever it's defined. I like my nutrients elevated slightly. Water changes alone over time are not an effective way to reduce nutrients (nitrates/phosphates).
My argument is that it is one of many ways to help remove stuff and help add stuff. That "stuff" is typically of some unknown quantity and potentially unknown necessity.
Also, I thought you were playing around with dosing certain trace elements like Zinc?
I also see no reason to chase numbers especially those of NSW levels. Even Triton can not detect NSW levels of many elements as it's beyond their LOD. Even for important metals like Iron.
..............
Oppinions are fine is any discussion, but lets make this about learning about new ways, not about what everybody already knows. There are tons of threads about the known ways.
Many people do things differently and are more or less succesfull, by condemning them they don't feel like sharing. Those stories are lost forever.
.................
I think you meant "The only one who bother taking it further than private knowledge".
Others have tried sharing their way, but did not get very far for a few reasons:
- Not enough wow factor.
- No enough long term result
- Limited coral population
- Not enough foundation to support their thoughts
- Not enough knowlegde to get into arguements
- Not enough time to spend
- No reason for of goal to archieve.
The main reason people don't share (or stop sharing) is the rain of negative response from people who don't appreciate their alternate/different/obstinate ways.
Nobody like being criticized, especially not when they mean well.
I don't use any algae filters, reactors, fluidizingbed or DSB.
Just a empty sump for skimmer, powerfilter, UV, Ozone.
The sump is to distribute water between 2 connected frag and "quarantine" tank.
Uv and ozone is primary to protect fish against parasites.
Happy Reefing, GlennF
The one bullet is important to me. "No long term results" That is what shows if a particular set of methods can work. You have shown that a No water change approach can happen but I have stated that I, that is me, have no knowledge of anyone else that has been successful at doing it. That does leave room for me being totally and completely wrong. But I at this point in time have no knowledge of anyone else achieving your tank's longevity with no specific water changes.
Some people, not me, do dismiss outliers. I see them as showing what's possible. So, when talking with me and grouping me in with others that are close minded is kind of insulting. I do state my opinions which to me doing a water change is useful and I see no reason for me to not to do them.
But you do show what's possible and I have suggested anyone looking to go the route of drastically reducing their water changes to seek you and your site out.
There are many other outliers that I find extremely important in this hobby. You are one of them. PaulB is another. TimFish shows one can go skimmerless. etc. But I do look for those outliers with "long term results" That to me is very important.
Last edited:
blasterman789
New member
My issue with the entire water change -vs- non water change or minimal water change argument is that we're doing just that; spending more time arguing than learning about the processes involved. As complex as this hobby is, and as little we know about reefing we need more knowledge and less bickering.
My main pet peeves on this whole topic are the following:
- Reef Stores that advocate over stocking tanks so that owners will resort to water changes to keep nitrate from reaching astronomical levels so they can sell them truckloads of R/O water and salt. I find this ludicrous and as bad for the hobby as couples buying 'Nemo' for their kid and throwing the poor clownfish in an undersized and poorly maintained tank. If you rely on water changes for nitrate export IMO you need a different hobby.
- Assuming that salt mixes are made in high tech lab with armies of scientists manning electron microscopes and chemical spectrometers to insure our salt mixes are have the best approximation of the sea water down to at least 50 boxes on the periodic table. The reality is that salt mixes are made in warehouses according to industrial formulas, and a good deal of those trace elements are coincedental contaminants. The fact I've tested bags of the same brand of salt that mixes with a difference of 5.5 dKH is proof enough of deviation to me. Fresh salt mix is not the equivelant of a 'normalization' in reefing terms. Commercial salt mixes are not equivalent to NSW in molecular composition. Not even close. The calcium chloride / Calcium carbonate ratio is radically different.
Not only have a seen amazing SPS tanks with minimal or no periodic water changes and just dosing or reactors, I've also seen SPS tanks with *no* dosing or reactors and just relying on normal calcium carbonate dissolution from substrate. First time I saw a tank growing SPS via only the elements the tank got from LR and substrate I was in shock, but I've seen them first hand. That again should warrant a conversation trying to understand and quantify the process involved without taking sides. More 'why' and less 'what'.
My main pet peeves on this whole topic are the following:
- Reef Stores that advocate over stocking tanks so that owners will resort to water changes to keep nitrate from reaching astronomical levels so they can sell them truckloads of R/O water and salt. I find this ludicrous and as bad for the hobby as couples buying 'Nemo' for their kid and throwing the poor clownfish in an undersized and poorly maintained tank. If you rely on water changes for nitrate export IMO you need a different hobby.
- Assuming that salt mixes are made in high tech lab with armies of scientists manning electron microscopes and chemical spectrometers to insure our salt mixes are have the best approximation of the sea water down to at least 50 boxes on the periodic table. The reality is that salt mixes are made in warehouses according to industrial formulas, and a good deal of those trace elements are coincedental contaminants. The fact I've tested bags of the same brand of salt that mixes with a difference of 5.5 dKH is proof enough of deviation to me. Fresh salt mix is not the equivelant of a 'normalization' in reefing terms. Commercial salt mixes are not equivalent to NSW in molecular composition. Not even close. The calcium chloride / Calcium carbonate ratio is radically different.
Not only have a seen amazing SPS tanks with minimal or no periodic water changes and just dosing or reactors, I've also seen SPS tanks with *no* dosing or reactors and just relying on normal calcium carbonate dissolution from substrate. First time I saw a tank growing SPS via only the elements the tank got from LR and substrate I was in shock, but I've seen them first hand. That again should warrant a conversation trying to understand and quantify the process involved without taking sides. More 'why' and less 'what'.
