anyone using a carlson surge device?
- Thread starter DrDNA
- Start date
Matt_Wandell
New member
Salt creep city. There are ways to mitigate this to some extent but you will always get lots of bubbles in the tank. I would never use one on a typical display tank for this reason. They're great in half full coral culture bins though.
The Borneman device is a bit better in this respect, although it sometimes requires a bit more tinkering to dial it in and keep it working.
There is a very simple method to make an incredibly powerful, nearly silent and bubble-less surge that is used for wavemakers at surf parks as well as some public aquariums. It utilizes a venturi and a motor driven valve to work, and I can describe it here if you're interested.
The Borneman device is a bit better in this respect, although it sometimes requires a bit more tinkering to dial it in and keep it working.
There is a very simple method to make an incredibly powerful, nearly silent and bubble-less surge that is used for wavemakers at surf parks as well as some public aquariums. It utilizes a venturi and a motor driven valve to work, and I can describe it here if you're interested.
ned2getfish
In Memoriam
Matt I would be interested in hearing it if the dr d not mind me getting in on his thread
dots
Premium Member
Ming had one at Atlantis a while back. If I remember, you have the floor to ceiling tank with a divider correct? If so that would work good for you.
I have been wanting to try the effects of a Gyre system with alternatating Vortechs to really give it the back and forth motion. Through in a CL with some crossflow, and I think it would be a well simulated enviroment.
The Carlson surges I have seen have been only one sided and whip the near side to death.
And yes, cavitation galore.........
I have been wanting to try the effects of a Gyre system with alternatating Vortechs to really give it the back and forth motion. Through in a CL with some crossflow, and I think it would be a well simulated enviroment.
The Carlson surges I have seen have been only one sided and whip the near side to death.
And yes, cavitation galore.........
dots
Premium Member
I am really interested in all methods of flow production, I am "somewhat" familliar with the themepark ones, if I remember they have a "gate" valve that creates the surge......is this correct? I am curious about the different types and love the 100% mechanical systems and even where they get closer and closer to ones like OM, which are really a sweet piece of gagetry.
jtarmitage
Active member
There's a sweet surge system built into this system that Spazz designed for St. Judes(Thread of the month). Not a lot of details though.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1196137
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1196137
Doug,
Well, my tank is set up as a room divider but it is open top and doesn't go to the ceiling (I have vaulted ceilings). But, with some cabinetry, I could probably hide a device above the tank on the end that's facing the wall (I have about 18" between the wall and the end of the tank).
Anyway I am definitely interested in learning about the system Matt suggested.
Well, my tank is set up as a room divider but it is open top and doesn't go to the ceiling (I have vaulted ceilings). But, with some cabinetry, I could probably hide a device above the tank on the end that's facing the wall (I have about 18" between the wall and the end of the tank).
Anyway I am definitely interested in learning about the system Matt suggested.
Matt_Wandell
New member
You'll have to forgive the cheesy paint diagram, but here it is.
Water is sucked into the airtight surge container by creating a vacuum via a venturi. The bottom picture shows the container filling. At a set interval, an air relief valve is lifted to kill the vacuum and dump the contents back into the display tank. This is the top picture.
//www.reefs.org/phpBB2/files/venturisurgedevice_109.jpg
The tricky part is the air relief valve. You can buy an all plastic solenoid but it'll be very expensive. I believe the water parks use automated butterfly valves, also expensive. An easy way to do it is to just have a motor lift a flap intermittently. I used a light mover motor.
Start throwing out the questions!
Water is sucked into the airtight surge container by creating a vacuum via a venturi. The bottom picture shows the container filling. At a set interval, an air relief valve is lifted to kill the vacuum and dump the contents back into the display tank. This is the top picture.
//www.reefs.org/phpBB2/files/venturisurgedevice_109.jpg
The tricky part is the air relief valve. You can buy an all plastic solenoid but it'll be very expensive. I believe the water parks use automated butterfly valves, also expensive. An easy way to do it is to just have a motor lift a flap intermittently. I used a light mover motor.
Start throwing out the questions!
Underwaterparadise
New member
tagging along. Is the motor used to open the flap just set on a timer type devise?
That is an interesting design for a surge device. I have a couple questions about it though. How big of a powerhead with venturi do you need, which I am guessing is a function of the height of the surge bucket above the tank? Also, Matt, what were the dimensions of the surge bucket, PVC water line back to the tank, etc, and how often would it "release" back into the tank?
jtarmitage
Active member
Matt, Question: Where do you place the powerhead? Because it looks to me like this design replaced the bubbles from the surge device with bubbles from the powerhead and venturi. I suppose it could be placed in a sump, but that would still create salt creep from the bursting of the bubbles. Any thoughts?
I suppose if you could use the air intake from the protein skimmer, that might solve that problem.
I suppose if you could use the air intake from the protein skimmer, that might solve that problem.
Matt_Wandell
New member
Sure, or you could use a light mover motor, or attach a crank to the motor and have it lift at the top of the rotation. The possibilites for playing around with this portion are endless. I leave the DIY of that portion up to you, as I have virtually no experience with that kind of stuff.
All that matters is that it is capable of lifting wih sufficient force to break the vacuum seal, at an interval somewhere around every 2-3 minutes or longer, depending on your preference.
Matt_Wandell
New member
Depends on the height of the highest water level above the display. I did it with a Mag 2 (250 gph?) at a water height approximately 24" above the display. You'll need to play around with it with your specific parameters. Sorry that I don't have a guideline to go by.
I used a 5 gallon bucket (with well sealed lid, of course!) and 2" return to the tank. The air relief valve was initially a toilet flapper, which is 2". I had some issues with air leaking into the bucket with this. I tried replacing the flapper to no avail. After discussing this with Chris Maupin of the Mote Marine Lab he suggested using a union fitting and solid flapper. I replaced the toilet bulkhead with the smaller half of a 2" union (the side with the rubber O-ring, lubricated heavily with silicone lubricant) and a small flat piece of PVC sheet on a hinge for the flapper. This was raised at the very peak of the cycle of a light mover motor (I mounted the rail vertically) which, to my surprise, was capable of lifting the flapper. This happened approximately every 4 minutes or so.
Matt_Wandell
New member
True enough. The benefit is that you can control where the bubbles go. You could put it in the sump with a filter sock on the ouput. You could place it inside your overflow chamber pointed downwards. You could stick it inside a sealed 5 gallon bucket sitting inside your sump with a couple small holes drilled in it. Again, I leave that up to you and your system.
Hmmm, I suppose, but it'd likely be problematic for your skimmer. The fluctuating water level in the bucket will effect the performance. Also, the venturi will suck up a bit of water every few minutes once the bucket fills up with water and before it dumps.
Matt_Wandell
New member
One thing I didn't mention is that I was not satisfied with the 5 gallon bucket as a container. Because of the air pressure changes on it there was quite a bit of bulging and flexing on the walls of the container. I am also not convinced the seal of the lid was airtight. In the future I would use an acrylic box (or cylinder) with a circular hole cut in the top and a flange with nylon union screws. Basically the same type of top you see on calcium reactor lids.
Twisted
Premium Member
I have been looking into various forms of surge tanks, and actually seena form of this used for the big water parks and wondering how I could adapt this to a reef tank.
Your diagram is excellent, and makes perfect sense. I do see the bubbles being a problem for useing just a powerhead for inlet. But that can be dealt with.
A couple of suggestions. On the air release valve perhaps a float attatched to the cap on the inside with an acrylic rod so that the increaseing water level will open it. This ofcourse will have to have someway of delayin the seal to close again to fast, or the water returning to the tank will stop.
And on the pvc pipe going into the tank, if you put it more to the center of the tank and all the way to the bottom with holes drilled in various spots for a few inches of it as a diffuser it will not create as much current, it will just surge the tank.
Your diagram is excellent, and makes perfect sense. I do see the bubbles being a problem for useing just a powerhead for inlet. But that can be dealt with.
A couple of suggestions. On the air release valve perhaps a float attatched to the cap on the inside with an acrylic rod so that the increaseing water level will open it. This ofcourse will have to have someway of delayin the seal to close again to fast, or the water returning to the tank will stop.
And on the pvc pipe going into the tank, if you put it more to the center of the tank and all the way to the bottom with holes drilled in various spots for a few inches of it as a diffuser it will not create as much current, it will just surge the tank.
Matt_Wandell
New member
Hmmm, it's problematic relying on the water level to open the valve. The valve needs to open relatively quickly and fully to really let air in there. The more air you can get in there the better. If you just open it a crack, the water level drops, the valve shuts, and you get a repeating loop.
