Are all Zoas toxic?

[tenwhiteduke]

I just got my first zoas, and really dont know what type they are, no one in the ID Forum is responding.

Anyways I have been reading a little trying to catch up on them,

Are all zoas toxic, or just some of them?

Is there a web site that has photos of which are toxic, and has ID's of each species so I can check myself.


Thanks

 

[Bebo77]

just dont grag them out of water with no glass on.. other than that they are fine..

 

[chrisstie]

I think bebo was trying to say don't frag them out of water without glasses on. I'd use gloves too- it really HURTS to get any tank stuff into a hangnail!!

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Zoanthidae species become toxic when a symbiotic dinoflagellate comes in contact with them. Palytoxin is actually made from the dinoflagellate and then secreted in the mucous of the animal. Then, if the mucous enters into the bloodstream, you'll have problems. It's the same concept as with Blue Ring Octopuses. They are not toxic until they come in contact with a very specific dinoflagellate. On the other hand, if you have one frag that is "infected" by the dinoflagellate, then you can count on the others being able to produce PTX if not now, in the future. So, because of that, you might as well treat every Zoanthindae frag you had as if it was toxic. Also, PTX was originally found in Sea Mats (Palythoa sp.) and not Button Polyps (Protopalythoa sp.) and Zoanthids (Zoathus sp.), but with their close genetics it wouldn't surprise me if they have them.

I personally think that Palytoxin is hyped up and overdone. It is a potentially deadly toxin that should be taken seriously, but the rare occurence and encounter rates in the ornamental marine aquarium industry aren't enough to cause an alarm to think that Palytoxin is an epidemic proportion. You are more likely to be stung by the Zoanthidae's nematocysts and fall into anaphylactic shock.

 

[Bebo77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9816790#post9816790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisstie
I think bebo was trying to say don't frag them out of water without glasses on. I'd use gloves too- it really HURTS to get any tank stuff into a hangnail!!

opps yeah... sorry about that.. i meant to say glasses.. lol:lol: :lol:

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Since no one can, has or will be able to document which of the thousands of potential candidates to have the palytoxin or the potential to produce it, it is always best to error on the side of caution. It has been well documented on numerous occasions, a dog died from drinking water that had zoas or palys in it, most notably in A. Calfo's book as well as in the sticky above regarding toxicity. I have been exposed twice years ago and I learned my lesson. I won't wait for a third time. If the palytoxin enters the mucus membrane via the eyes, mouth, a cut, open cuticle etc, and depending on how much, you can have some serious problems. Did anyone read the recent story right here on RC regarding the fumes from a zoa rock where the reefer poured hot water over the colony I think to kill it. The vapors went up his nose, and guess what? Read this.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083843

When you are fragging, wear reef safe gloves, eye protection and wash your hands after you are finish. The least one can do is buy a box of powder free latex gloves, you're family will greatly appreciate it one day.

Bottom line, I treat them all as if they are toxic, even if they aren't. The one day that you drop your guard, might be the day you regret you did. Not trying to cause a scare, but if this scares you enough to be cautious, then I don't mind being the one to cause that scare. Reefing is like a sharp knife, without proper handling and care, someone can be seriously hurt. Did I just wax poetic?

No disrespect to anyones post above, this is just my unprofessional opinion.

Reef safe everyone.

Mucho Reef


PS, everyone, please take a moment to read the polls at the top of this forum and cast your vote. A COMMENT WOULD BE NICE AS WELL, IT WILL REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE, YOU'LL SEE. THANKS

 

[RevHtree]

Again Mucho to the rescue!! Great info Mucho!

 

[gflat65]

I agree you should be careful, but I don't buy in to all the random injuries and issues attributed to palytoxin. I have fragged hundred or thousands of time over the years with no gloves, no goggles and cuts all over my hands and the worst I've gotten from it is a bit dizzy on two occasions (after fragging for 3 hours or so non stop). The reports I hear on how Palytoxin works suggest that something else is getting alot of those who say they've been poisoned by palytoxin. Show me a few actual medical documents on it, not just anecdotal experiences, and maybe I'd be more on board, but I just don't believe all of the hype. Knop mentioned that if 1/1000000th of a gram got into your bloodstream, you'd die (one of the last two or three Coral magazines). If that were the case, we'd have deaths all over the US from zoa fragging... I'm not aware of anyone dying frmo fragging zoas. Period. I think numbers are just thrown out there pretty often, just as 98.6735638jjtt45757783jh66377% of all statistics are made up on the spot. I'm not saying not to be cautious-caution rarely ever hurt anyone. I'm just saying I don't believe the hype because I haven't seen anything in any documentation to support the claims that have been made (and have seen no medically documented cases by actual medical professionals). Being a little dizzy from time to time is a treat for me. And I have no way of proving that when I got dizzy and a numb arm that it was palytoxin that did it... Some people get some crazy skin problems from just sticking their hands in the tank, so I don't think anyone can deny that there are thousands or millions of things that could be causing the problems. Actual documented numbers would tell it all (I live by numbers and documented observations-can't go off of what people tell me in my line of work because there is always some sort of agenda, whether it be conscious or subconscious). Maybe six sigma has fried my brain...

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I hear you gflat65, great point, and I'm not arguing with you at all here my friend. Me, when it comes to safety, I don't need numbers, facts or anyone telling me twice to be careful when potentially my health is in possible jeopardy, again, that's just me. I'm not even concerned with how much I would need to ingest into my system, or how many or few times it has happened. I just know the potential is there.


"And I have no way of proving that when I got dizzy and a numb arm that it was palytoxin that did it..."

And you also have no proof that it didn't. The symptoms you exhibited are typical when it comes to exposure to these toxins. I have to ask you though, what was it in your opinion that made you dizzy, accompanied by a numbness in your arm? My friend, that was firsthand exposure, and I hope that I am $ 200 wrong.



A few years ago I read that my Blue Hippo was reef safe. Then I read a true account of several Tangs which are considered reef safe, who were caught eating zoas. There was no report or study done to say watch out for Blue Hippos, but I remembered what the reefer warned many of us about in his isolated true life accounts of his Blue Tang eating zoanthids. At the time I have well over $ 2,000 worth of crazy rare and hard to find zoas and palys, and that was before the prices started to skyrocket last year. I could have said that I needed to wait for more reefers to report that this would/could indeed happen. But I started to watch my pretty blue hippo, then it happened, we swam by my crazy red zoas and popped one off. Then another, and another, and before I knew it, I noticed that he had been eating them for a few days because I could see a clear spot on the back side of the rock. Though my book said he was safe, I chose to believe the reefer who had experienced it firsthand. It was because of him that I started to watch my Hippo in the first place, now I'm glad I did.

The same thing happened with the LFS owner who argued with me over Large emerald crabs being reef safe. If you do a search you can read the whole story. To make a long story short, he didn't even take into account what I had shared with him. I didn't have any other proof, documentation, no studies, nothing. Several months/weeks later I received a PM/text from him with a heart felt apology. What I told him was correct and he opened up his LFS one morning and found his show tank full of crazy zoas and palys that had been nearly wiped out by larger emeralds.

I said all of that to say this, I greatly respect your opinion, but when thousands of dollars are at stake, I will listen to anything you or anyone has to say about any subject which might cause me grief, hard earned money and a nightmare. I too have had my hands in the tank water many times without any issues, not anymore though. I don't want to be the one to say,"darn it, I should have listened". No offense my friend, but I'm playing it safe.

All the best to you, Mucho Reef

 

[gflat65]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9826554#post9826554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
I'm not arguing with you at all here

No worries. I'm not very argumentative unless someone really pushes my buttons, which is rare (though it has happened a few times in some forums over the years).

I certainly see your point. It's just that such a big deal is made over palytoxin and how deadly it is, but no one has every died, so... It just seems somewhat alarmist to me. The article by Knop in Coral magazine really set me out on the defensive on palytoxin (I've got issues with Knop, not because he is so full of himself, but because he makes wide generalizations that he passses off as fact-he has a lot of knowledge, don't get me wrong, but I think he uses 'poetic license' too often). He proudly took (takes) credit for ridding Europe of zoas because they are such nasty creatures and sooo deadly (he used a wire brush to kill them off in a tank and it in turn killed a lot of SPS in the tank, so of course the palytoxin was to blame-sorry, but that was more likely the scrubbing out of a large mass of living creature into the water column than the toxicity of the Palythoa sp. he was trying to eradicate-even people with some intelligence do wildy stupid things sometimes, I guess).

Caution is definitely a good thing, though. You've got to take care of yourself. I can't say that palytoxin wasn't responsible for the dizziness and numbeness (I actually attribute that episode to palytoxin, but with there being so many other factors, how could I say it was that... maybe my arm was numb from the position and I was dizzy because I'd been staring at zoas and making frags for hours). It's like when the cat knocks the turkey off the counter and the dog gets blamed.

To go 180 out from your point on the regal tangs (I like banter), I had asked around about Scribbled Rabbitfish to take care of my razor caulerpa problem and every person I talked to (two in person and about five others, if I remember correctly, in threads) talked about how theirs had never hurt anything and would be recommended to anyone. I got one. He took care of my razor caulerpa in about a week. Then he moved on to zoa colonies and got four or five in a day before I realized what was happening. I got the zoas out of the tank, then he went after my acans (the more expensive ones must taste better). I pulled all of them and he seemed to be looking for something else to munch on. I have since heard of people having similar issues on zoas with Scribbled Rabbitfish, but none with problems on LPS (and I suspect him of eating my neon green Pocillopora, as he was pulling tissue off-just can't be positive that something else didn't cause it to start losing tissue, though only the spots the fish was hitting were damaged). I guess the moral is anything can happen...

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I see your point as well.

The second paragraph above really blew me away. I had never heard about that. Do you have a link you can send me, I'd love to read more on it. Thanks.

I just like to play it safe, I'm always looking ahead and around the corner when it comes to reefing.

I heard that about the Scribble as well, sounds like he went to town on your corals, sorry to hear that.

Glad we could have an intelligent none confrontational discussion. Thanks again boss.

Mucho Reef


PS, Reverand Revtree, I didn't swear above, I said " I don't want to be the one to say,"darn it, I should have listened" . The a and the n are so close together it looks like dam, but it's d-a-r-n, LOL . Friends ?

 

[DaveBien]

Always error on the side of caution, use protection.

I worked with explosives in the AF. I never blew myself up, but others have. Just MY .02

 

[gflat65]

Rev's gonna get you for that one. Straight to Hell.





























Hell, Michigan, that is.

I don't have a link, but when I unpack the Coral magazines, I'll find the issue number, etc.

I appreciate the debate, too. I like to say my piece, but some people like to start calling names or get irrate when people don't agree with them. We are all different and will have different opinions, etc. This crazy world...

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Thanks, I'd just like to read it, maybe I'll google it.

"I appreciate the debate, too. I like to say my piece, but some people like to start calling names or get irrate when people don't agree with them. We are all different and will have different opinions, etc. "

I agree, I have no problem if someone disagrees with me and I'm never offended at all. If someone wants to launch missles, I'll reply once or twice, but when it turns ugly, I move on. If we can agree that we disagree and still speak on line the next day, hey, I'm all for it. Don't want to get off topic as the poll speaks of above, so I'll stop here. Thanks again.


Mucho Reef

 

[MUCHO REEF]

A few informative links BTW on Palytoxins. It is good to have this information in case you have to seek medical attention.


http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

http://www.reference.com/browse/all/palytoxins

Mooch

 

[trottman]

Paly toxin is very common in wild zoos. They loose their play toxin over a period of time in aquariums, becaues they are not getting the appropriate nutrients to sustain the toxin. If palytoxin is put into your blod stream, it can be deadly.
nausia
heart stop
faint
pale

the olny thing that can be done once it gets into your blood stream is to basically do a whole body flush. with IV fluid. like 2L of IV per hours for 10 hours or long considering the condition.

if you pee blood after you have been intoxicated by palytoxin that is a very bad sign. Death is short to follow, because the toxin has seriously damaged you.

once palytoxin gets into you blood stream , your body will not know what it is a hevily reject it and fight it off. eventually the palytoxin will win, and you will being to feel the symptoms. this has been noted to take place several days after palytoxin has gotten into an eye, cut, mouth, et...

The CDC has very little info on palytoxin, except that it is rare and that most aquraiums are not close enough (in parameters) to the ocean to have zoanthids sustain their toxin for very long. Palytoxin is used as a defense mechanism in the wild, and is usually not needed in aquarium survival.
-so basically, our aquriums are not good enought to have zoanthids thrive to their full potential and produce palytoxin.

 

[Letmegrow]

This is the real life Trottman, I took the picture as a blackmail picture because I thought he was drunk, but when I could not revive him I put the camera down and got worried.

He also has Pericarditis, an inflammation of the sac surrounding the heart as a result of the Palytoxin seizing his heart during the poisoning.

 

[mhurley]

letmegrow,

Is that a picture of someone that is seriously ill or a joke? If it's real, I think it is wholly inappropriate to post.

 

[surfnvb7]

i agree with all the above, especially taking caution even if there is not a high risk...

my biggest problem with first hand accounts with physical symptoms is the "numbness" claim. in all the neuroscience and neurochemical text books i've read, there is no evidence that palytoxin is able to act like a paralyzing or numbness agent.

that is a completely different neuronal receptor than what we believe is the receptor that palytoxin reacts at...which is in the heart.

so the only credible numbness that could possibly be described as a direct result from palytoxin poisoning would be due to the lack of blood flow getting to your peripheral areas b/c your heart is shutting down, thus an indirect secondary mechanism. if you've reached that stage, you are in BIG trouble...and are at a point of no return...

there are millions of other unknown compounds in these corals...numbness, strange taste in your mouth, etc etc could easily be caused by another compound.

you gota know the biochemistry in order to be able to specifically blaim a certain compound.

 

[Letmegrow]

You have a PM.