Are mantis shrimp the most intelligent invertebrates?
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
Gonodactylus
Premium Member
My comments on longevity were not intended to make any direct connection between how long an animal lives and "intelligence" or "learning" ability. I was simply pointing out in the context of the discussion that animals with repeated social contacts, particularly with one or a few known individuals, might be more likely to evolve the capacity for observational learning.
However, this did start me thinking about size/longevity and behavioral plasticity in octopus (no generalizations to other cephalopods) and in my experience pygmy, short lived species such as O. bocki, Hapalochlaena lunulata, etc. don't seem to exhibit the plasticity as do large, somewhat longer lived species such as O. cyanea and GPO's. I'm not sure whether this would hold up for Stomatopoda, although it might within particular gruoups such as the gonodactylids.
Roy
However, this did start me thinking about size/longevity and behavioral plasticity in octopus (no generalizations to other cephalopods) and in my experience pygmy, short lived species such as O. bocki, Hapalochlaena lunulata, etc. don't seem to exhibit the plasticity as do large, somewhat longer lived species such as O. cyanea and GPO's. I'm not sure whether this would hold up for Stomatopoda, although it might within particular gruoups such as the gonodactylids.
Roy
can it simply have something to do with the absolute number of neurons possesed by the critter? Larger animals have larger absolute nervous systems and thus have more capacity for memory storage, learning, etc .
In addition, do longer lived species have less need for fast "hardwired" solutions in their "brains" since observational learning can come into play given their longer life spans?
In addition, do longer lived species have less need for fast "hardwired" solutions in their "brains" since observational learning can come into play given their longer life spans?
Gonodactylus said:
I missed this point.
Give me some references or URLs, because my understanding was that after laying eggs, they protect it for awhile, maybe until hatching, then the young are left to their own devices (which is similar to what other invertebrates do)...that's not parental care compared to the long years of learning and attachment a young primate has with its parents.
Give me some references or URLs, because my understanding was that after laying eggs, they protect it for awhile, maybe until hatching, then the young are left to their own devices (which is similar to what other invertebrates do)...that's not parental care compared to the long years of learning and attachment a young primate has with its parents.
Pandora said:Lastly, on no parental care... look up octopus and parental care and I think you'll find more infoOr better yet, ask some of the people here on RC who have bred them. The mothers are often exceptionally good parents, refusing food while rearing young, and of course, ultimately dying for their reproductive success.
Pandora
Premium Member
Kalim, if we're talking absolute neurons, then of course the octopus would win... it's got one of the highest brain to body masses of any animal! I'm not sure why you choose to ignore certain information and emphasize others in order to make your point... to me this is not what the scientific method is all about.
And you missed my point about the inclusion of the octopus, squid and nautilus... if you are to group stomatopods and compare them to other animals, then grouping cephalopods together and comparing them is only fair. They evolved together, and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I already made my point about not knowing their ancestral state; taking all their present living descendants is one of the only ways we can figure out how the monophyletic group evolved.
Kalim, why so set on proving one way or another? I do think that we should keep our minds open to the idea that they both have different types of intelligence that we just haven't been able to tap into yet. On the observational learning, I've still yet to hear evidence that stomatopods, or any invertebrate (including ceph's) can learn this way, so this isn't really a factor...
Gono, what you're saying on the size/cognition is interesting and reminded me of survey and theory I once read... that larger species within a family seemed to have greater ability to do certain cognitive tasks... and the theory, however, had nothing to do with observational learning (see above, there's no real evidence of that in inverts) but rather that smaller animals had much faster metabolisms and thus had to spend the large majority of their time seeking immediate-gratification foods (such as that berry right over yonder, 20 calories) rather than other types of exploration which involve greater risks (that a larger organism can afford to take, like I'll bide my time and hunt down that rabbit, 500 calories).
That's interesting that you study both stomatopods and cephs and have come up with that conclusion... certainly a first for me. I know of two other people who own both and they also feel like their octopi or squid are more intelligent... but to each their own...
BTW, you wouldn't be Roy as in Dr. Roy Caldwell would you?
PS to both Gono and kalim: I find this to be an interesting exchange also, and though I disagree with some of what you're saying, I hope none of you takes this debate personally
And you missed my point about the inclusion of the octopus, squid and nautilus... if you are to group stomatopods and compare them to other animals, then grouping cephalopods together and comparing them is only fair. They evolved together, and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I already made my point about not knowing their ancestral state; taking all their present living descendants is one of the only ways we can figure out how the monophyletic group evolved.
Kalim, why so set on proving one way or another? I do think that we should keep our minds open to the idea that they both have different types of intelligence that we just haven't been able to tap into yet. On the observational learning, I've still yet to hear evidence that stomatopods, or any invertebrate (including ceph's) can learn this way, so this isn't really a factor...
Gono, what you're saying on the size/cognition is interesting and reminded me of survey and theory I once read... that larger species within a family seemed to have greater ability to do certain cognitive tasks... and the theory, however, had nothing to do with observational learning (see above, there's no real evidence of that in inverts) but rather that smaller animals had much faster metabolisms and thus had to spend the large majority of their time seeking immediate-gratification foods (such as that berry right over yonder, 20 calories) rather than other types of exploration which involve greater risks (that a larger organism can afford to take, like I'll bide my time and hunt down that rabbit, 500 calories).
That's interesting that you study both stomatopods and cephs and have come up with that conclusion... certainly a first for me. I know of two other people who own both and they also feel like their octopi or squid are more intelligent... but to each their own...
BTW, you wouldn't be Roy as in Dr. Roy Caldwell would you?
PS to both Gono and kalim: I find this to be an interesting exchange also, and though I disagree with some of what you're saying, I hope none of you takes this debate personally
Pandora
Premium Member
Um, here you go:
Hanlon, R.T. and J.B. Messenger. 1996. Cephalopod Behaviour. Cambridge University Press. 232 pp.
Fiorito, G., C. von Planta and P. Scotto. 1990. Problem solving ability of Octopus vulgaris Lamarck (Mollusca: Cephalopoda). Behavioral and Neural Biology. 53:217-230.
Mather, J.A. and R.C. Anderson. 1999. Exploration, play and habituation in octopuses (Octopus dofleini). Journal of Comparative Psychology. 113(3):333-338.
Gosling, S.D. and O.P. John. 1999. Personality dimensions in nonhuman animals, a cross-species review. Current Directions in Psychological Science. 8:69-75
Wells, M.J. 1978. Octopus ñ physiology and behaviour of an advanced invertebrate. Chapman and Hall (London). 417 pp.
De Waal, Franz. 2001. The Ape and the Sushi Master.
And if you don't have a chance to find these at the library, here's some stuff on the internet you can read right now:
http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus.html
http://www.aquariumofpacific.org/new/ffstry.htm
Or just ask Gono, I'm sure he knows a thing or two about octopus rearing and their parental care
Oh, and while we're on THAT comparison, show me the long years of learning, attachment and "mammalian-style" parental care that a stomatopod shows her young? Or um... does she just eat them when they get to grow a certain size? Gee... sounds a bit like the octopus... go figure! LOL
If the confusion is over the term "parental care", this is a term used in sociobiology to involve all different forms of care given to young, a continuum of care rather than are they either "brooders" or "spawners". Parental care CAN involve just looking after eggs and young and then leaving them to their own devices, just as many mammals do as well. These are just different reproductive strategies to maximize survival, and determines if the young will be precocious or attritial.
Um, kalim, do you have a personal vendetta against the octopus that you want so hard to prove them bad at everything?
Hanlon, R.T. and J.B. Messenger. 1996. Cephalopod Behaviour. Cambridge University Press. 232 pp.
Fiorito, G., C. von Planta and P. Scotto. 1990. Problem solving ability of Octopus vulgaris Lamarck (Mollusca: Cephalopoda). Behavioral and Neural Biology. 53:217-230.
Mather, J.A. and R.C. Anderson. 1999. Exploration, play and habituation in octopuses (Octopus dofleini). Journal of Comparative Psychology. 113(3):333-338.
Gosling, S.D. and O.P. John. 1999. Personality dimensions in nonhuman animals, a cross-species review. Current Directions in Psychological Science. 8:69-75
Wells, M.J. 1978. Octopus ñ physiology and behaviour of an advanced invertebrate. Chapman and Hall (London). 417 pp.
De Waal, Franz. 2001. The Ape and the Sushi Master.
And if you don't have a chance to find these at the library, here's some stuff on the internet you can read right now:
http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus.html
http://www.aquariumofpacific.org/new/ffstry.htm
Or just ask Gono, I'm sure he knows a thing or two about octopus rearing and their parental care
Oh, and while we're on THAT comparison, show me the long years of learning, attachment and "mammalian-style" parental care that a stomatopod shows her young? Or um... does she just eat them when they get to grow a certain size? Gee... sounds a bit like the octopus... go figure! LOL
If the confusion is over the term "parental care", this is a term used in sociobiology to involve all different forms of care given to young, a continuum of care rather than are they either "brooders" or "spawners". Parental care CAN involve just looking after eggs and young and then leaving them to their own devices, just as many mammals do as well. These are just different reproductive strategies to maximize survival, and determines if the young will be precocious or attritial.
Um, kalim, do you have a personal vendetta against the octopus that you want so hard to prove them bad at everything?
Gonodactylus
Premium Member
If we are moving towards a discussion of parental care, stomatopods certainly engage in far more of it in both quality and quantity. Just a few highlights of things that some stomatopods do that octopus don't.
1. Care of larvae as well as eggs.
2. Multiple broods - perhaps as many as 20 or 30 breeding episodes in a life-time.
3. Monogamy, breeding with the same partner for up to 20 years.
4. Biparental care with both males and females tending eggs and larvae. In fact in Pullosquilla and some Nannosquilla, the female lays two clutches of eggs, one that the male tends and one that the female cares for.
Some octopus may stop eating for several months and waste away, but some stomatopods also quite eating for months - and they don't die when the eggs hatch.
Roy
1. Care of larvae as well as eggs.
2. Multiple broods - perhaps as many as 20 or 30 breeding episodes in a life-time.
3. Monogamy, breeding with the same partner for up to 20 years.
4. Biparental care with both males and females tending eggs and larvae. In fact in Pullosquilla and some Nannosquilla, the female lays two clutches of eggs, one that the male tends and one that the female cares for.
Some octopus may stop eating for several months and waste away, but some stomatopods also quite eating for months - and they don't die when the eggs hatch.
Roy
Pandora
Premium Member
1) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with larval care over just egg brooding (given that there is no evidence for invert observational learning to begin with, mimicry and learning from parents is out).
2) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with having multiple broods (this is merely a difference in reproductive strategy, as earlier stated, and some genus/species that have single broods have been shown to have the highest cognitive ability in their class... i.e. see primata, proboscidea, etc.)
3) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with sexual monogamy.
4) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with biparental care.
I think you get the idea... these are traits of the organism that are INTERESTING, but relating them to "intelligence", as I said many times before, is an anthropomorphic myth and species-centric. It's like picking and choosing traits that we can "relate to" moral humans as having... being good parents, being sexually monogamous, having good visual accuity vs. other senses, being warm-blooded, etc... and saying because the animal is like us, they must be intelligent, too. None of the above behaviors, though fascinating, has direct relevance on "intelligence" as defined by Merrium-Webster:
I don't know if I would go so far as to say the octopus (or the mantis) would have the capability to *reason* with what I've seen and read, but I do believe they come closest to thinking abstractly as measured by objective criteria and flexibility of trying new behaviors in novel situations (i.e. spatial parity mapping tests, maze-running tasks, etc.).
To quote Dr. Scott Rifkin, a well-known sociobiologist at Harvard:
2) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with having multiple broods (this is merely a difference in reproductive strategy, as earlier stated, and some genus/species that have single broods have been shown to have the highest cognitive ability in their class... i.e. see primata, proboscidea, etc.)
3) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with sexual monogamy.
4) Please show me evidence from studies that shows cognitive ability to be correlated with biparental care.
I think you get the idea... these are traits of the organism that are INTERESTING, but relating them to "intelligence", as I said many times before, is an anthropomorphic myth and species-centric. It's like picking and choosing traits that we can "relate to" moral humans as having... being good parents, being sexually monogamous, having good visual accuity vs. other senses, being warm-blooded, etc... and saying because the animal is like us, they must be intelligent, too. None of the above behaviors, though fascinating, has direct relevance on "intelligence" as defined by Merrium-Webster:
I don't know if I would go so far as to say the octopus (or the mantis) would have the capability to *reason* with what I've seen and read, but I do believe they come closest to thinking abstractly as measured by objective criteria and flexibility of trying new behaviors in novel situations (i.e. spatial parity mapping tests, maze-running tasks, etc.).
To quote Dr. Scott Rifkin, a well-known sociobiologist at Harvard:
Gonodactylus answered your other points about octopus versus stomatopod parental care, so i'll stick to one point:
i think octopuses are actually superbly adapted critters that are just as fascinating as mantis shrimps. Me and my wife saw one on a recent trip to
hawaii and it definitely made our day. However, I am highly skeptical of all these broad based claims that octopuses (or even stomatopods) are "intelligent"...I've read that italian (?) paper, but i've also read quite a few other dissenting opinions....since intelligence is such an amorphous concept anyways, i think sticking to narrower concepts such as measurements of observational learning, recognition, etc in discussions or papers is probably more worthwhile and more helpful to everyone.
i think octopuses are actually superbly adapted critters that are just as fascinating as mantis shrimps. Me and my wife saw one on a recent trip to
hawaii and it definitely made our day. However, I am highly skeptical of all these broad based claims that octopuses (or even stomatopods) are "intelligent"...I've read that italian (?) paper, but i've also read quite a few other dissenting opinions....since intelligence is such an amorphous concept anyways, i think sticking to narrower concepts such as measurements of observational learning, recognition, etc in discussions or papers is probably more worthwhile and more helpful to everyone.
Pandora said:Um, kalim, do you have a personal vendetta against the octopus that you want so hard to prove them bad at everything?
Pandora, on your requests for studies from Gonodactylus:
I do not believe Gonodactylus even implied any such relationship between the parental care traits and intelligence in his last post...he merely responded to your comparison between octopus and stomatopod parental care. In this case, how stomatopod parental care exceeds those in octopuses by several measures.
I would suggest also that Gonodactylus probably has many references to cite how stomatopods probably match or exceed octopuses in some of the studies done on learning, recognition, and other measurable behavioral traits.
I do not believe Gonodactylus even implied any such relationship between the parental care traits and intelligence in his last post...he merely responded to your comparison between octopus and stomatopod parental care. In this case, how stomatopod parental care exceeds those in octopuses by several measures.
I would suggest also that Gonodactylus probably has many references to cite how stomatopods probably match or exceed octopuses in some of the studies done on learning, recognition, and other measurable behavioral traits.
i missed this.
that's nice, except i believe there was some big discussion a while back where the large relative brain size of octopuses was attributable to the fact that it needed most of that for muscular control of the many flexible arms. any info on how much of its brain is not sensory or for muscular control?
what did i ignore? in many things, sociality, liefspan, sensory capabilities , parental care, etc, stomatopods seem to exceed anything found in octopuses...
nothing personal...you should see the REALLY nasty debates going on in IT/programming discussion groups.
that's nice, except i believe there was some big discussion a while back where the large relative brain size of octopuses was attributable to the fact that it needed most of that for muscular control of the many flexible arms. any info on how much of its brain is not sensory or for muscular control?
what did i ignore? in many things, sociality, liefspan, sensory capabilities , parental care, etc, stomatopods seem to exceed anything found in octopuses...
nothing personal...you should see the REALLY nasty debates going on in IT/programming discussion groups.
Pandora said:
Pandora
Premium Member
kalim, hehe, I should have never even gone down the slippery slope of parental care to begin with, I only mentioned it because YOU originally brought it up in comparison... it's really not a relevant subject to cognitive ability (unless observational learning and mimicry are directly related to it).
Also, I would definitely agree with you on the part about broad-based claims and the very general idea of "what intelligence is". I will certainly give you that there is more evidence for stomatopods recognizing others, after all, they as a whole more social than octopus (though the word is still out on a number of squid which do show recognition, but as I said, based on evidence alone). But I didn't ask for that... I asked for evidence of observational learning. Look this term up, it has a very specific meaning. I would be extremely surprised if ANY invertebrate had been documented conclusively to learn by observation... the closest studies have all been done on octopi, and I would doubt THAT claim as well, because they were not well-designed studies.
I think the point is that we do all agree that both animals exhibit different aspects of intelligence, we are just disagreeing on what to put emphasis on. I could just as well ask for evidence of mantis spatial mapping, or of neurophysiologic studies on frontal lobe development in mantis, nerve conduction studies, or shape encodement and memory. There is a paucity of evidence on both sides (in different specific testible realms of intelligence), not necessarily because either animal is incapable, but sometimes because the studies have not been done yet, again a limitation of humans. On that respect, I'd certainly be interested in what Dr. Caldwell has to say, since he's done research with both.
Also, I would definitely agree with you on the part about broad-based claims and the very general idea of "what intelligence is". I will certainly give you that there is more evidence for stomatopods recognizing others, after all, they as a whole more social than octopus (though the word is still out on a number of squid which do show recognition, but as I said, based on evidence alone). But I didn't ask for that... I asked for evidence of observational learning. Look this term up, it has a very specific meaning. I would be extremely surprised if ANY invertebrate had been documented conclusively to learn by observation... the closest studies have all been done on octopi, and I would doubt THAT claim as well, because they were not well-designed studies.
I think the point is that we do all agree that both animals exhibit different aspects of intelligence, we are just disagreeing on what to put emphasis on. I could just as well ask for evidence of mantis spatial mapping, or of neurophysiologic studies on frontal lobe development in mantis, nerve conduction studies, or shape encodement and memory. There is a paucity of evidence on both sides (in different specific testible realms of intelligence), not necessarily because either animal is incapable, but sometimes because the studies have not been done yet, again a limitation of humans. On that respect, I'd certainly be interested in what Dr. Caldwell has to say, since he's done research with both.
Pandora
Premium Member
Hehe, this is kind of funny, but weren't you the one who originally made the point about sensory interpretation to be one aspect of intelligence, kalim?
So if indeed the frontal cortex of the cephalopod was predominantly used for sensory interpretation and motor dexterity, these were points you were using to support the mantis theory before, so I don't understand that contradiction... hehe, I never said they were using their frontal cortexes to do complex math...
By the way, social interaction is not the only theory of how intelligence evolved in various animals... it's probably just the one that's gotten the most public press lately (in large part because of the interest in human evolution, and since we are human, we place emphasis on things like sociality). There is also a popular theory of evolution of intelligence which is around a predator/prey "arms race" in which predators evolve big brains as the ultimate weapon.
Oh, and for the things that you left out, see the above msg (i.e. geospatial interpretation, flexibility of behavior in problem-solving tasks, neurophysiologic correlation of anatomy to behavior, etc).
(BTW, having reread that quote by you again, I do disagree with the last sentence, I would say dogs are significantly better at interpretting odor cues as well)
So if indeed the frontal cortex of the cephalopod was predominantly used for sensory interpretation and motor dexterity, these were points you were using to support the mantis theory before, so I don't understand that contradiction... hehe, I never said they were using their frontal cortexes to do complex math...
By the way, social interaction is not the only theory of how intelligence evolved in various animals... it's probably just the one that's gotten the most public press lately (in large part because of the interest in human evolution, and since we are human, we place emphasis on things like sociality). There is also a popular theory of evolution of intelligence which is around a predator/prey "arms race" in which predators evolve big brains as the ultimate weapon.
Oh, and for the things that you left out, see the above msg (i.e. geospatial interpretation, flexibility of behavior in problem-solving tasks, neurophysiologic correlation of anatomy to behavior, etc).
You're all crazy! Everyone knows hermit crabs are the most intelligent invert. But seriously, here are my biased (yeah thats right) opinions and arguments:
1) In nature an octopus smaller than a mantis shrimp (such as a blue ring) can eat a mantis shrimp for breakfast, who's smarter now?
2) If you put an octopus in a box with a door and then put a monster in the box the octopus would quickly find the door, open it and jet away. If you put a mantis shrimp in a box with an easily breakable wall and put a monster in the box I dont think the mantis would bust outta there. Or maybe it would, i dont know what Im talking about, mantis shrimps are the ones that punch, ya? Or you could do this experiment starting the animals outside the box and instead of a monster put food in the box and see which one gets the food.
3) Octos change color and thats cool
So i have come to the conclusion that cephs are smarter in every way except in punching stuff. Now who wants to argue against my ignorance!??!?
1) In nature an octopus smaller than a mantis shrimp (such as a blue ring) can eat a mantis shrimp for breakfast, who's smarter now?
2) If you put an octopus in a box with a door and then put a monster in the box the octopus would quickly find the door, open it and jet away. If you put a mantis shrimp in a box with an easily breakable wall and put a monster in the box I dont think the mantis would bust outta there. Or maybe it would, i dont know what Im talking about, mantis shrimps are the ones that punch, ya? Or you could do this experiment starting the animals outside the box and instead of a monster put food in the box and see which one gets the food.
3) Octos change color and thats cool
So i have come to the conclusion that cephs are smarter in every way except in punching stuff. Now who wants to argue against my ignorance!??!?
Pandora
Premium Member
LOL, before anyone else sinks ya, Rudiger, I'm afraid I might have to.... stomatopods do have color change capabilities (though I'd argue, not to the precision of the color/pattern matching most cephs are able to achieve).... and if the octopus was smaller but nonpoisonous (not blue ringed), I would have to put my money on the mantis, they are known to kill small octos (if the octo was bigger, I'd put my $$ on him, same thing... they are both highly predatory and mean mo-fos).
On the door thing, maybe... but only if the door was latched! (I've yet to hear of mantises picking latches from the other side of the door hehe)
On the door thing, maybe... but only if the door was latched! (I've yet to hear of mantises picking latches from the other side of the door hehe)
i gotta say, i been following this subject with interest, cuz i also own both... i got an O. briarius and also a peacock mantis. pandora sounds like she presents the most convincing argument so far, though good points on both sides.
since i got both pets, i do think that my octopus is definitely the better problem solver of the two. he's snuck out of his tank not once but 3 times, despite me trying to fix it so that each time he can't sneak out the same spot... he always figures out something i haven't. the mantis is cool too, don't get me wrong, i just don't think he's smart in the same way.
since i got both pets, i do think that my octopus is definitely the better problem solver of the two. he's snuck out of his tank not once but 3 times, despite me trying to fix it so that each time he can't sneak out the same spot... he always figures out something i haven't. the mantis is cool too, don't get me wrong, i just don't think he's smart in the same way.
cephalopoder
Premium Member
This argument takes place out here about once a year. I keep both cephalopods and stomatopods. They are both intelligent in thier own ways.
I will not comment on who I think is more intelligent because they both have their strong points. I am glad I keep both.
As far as who is tuffer... I think Dr Roy has the most knowledge on that subject...allthough I think I heard somewhere that a some mantis like to feed on blue ring octos...
"The Fastest Claw in The West" is a film any stomatopod critic should watch.
I will not comment on who I think is more intelligent because they both have their strong points. I am glad I keep both.
As far as who is tuffer... I think Dr Roy has the most knowledge on that subject...allthough I think I heard somewhere that a some mantis like to feed on blue ring octos...
"The Fastest Claw in The West" is a film any stomatopod critic should watch.
maybe it's the way the posts are done, but now i'm not so sure what you're referring to....
with regards to dogs, i mentioned they can "distinguish" odor better (obviously, because what would the point be of having good smell of you can't distinguish the smells), but we can "interpret" an odor better once we know what it is (hmmm..apple pie, aunt georgie said today she would be cooking apple pie, therefore that person cooking right now must be aunt georgie).
when did i say having better sensory apparata made the mantis more intelligent (you seem to be stuck on this relatively unproveable point)? i simply noted (since you started on that parental care thing) that mantis shrimps beat octopuses hands down in a hell of a lot more things.
http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/logs/111600.htm
with regards to your points about two possible sources of intelligence, one
"predators evolved intelligence..." what does this have to do with anything?...they're both predators...on the other hand, mantis shrimps are a heck of a lot more social than octopus, so that's 1-0 in favor of mantis shrimps. btw, this new statement of your contradicts your older comments that downplayed sociality as having a bearing on intelligence.
here's cute pic of some stomatopod solving a rubik's cube, which PROVES it's intelligent
from: http://www.vthrc.uq.edu.au/ecovis/CurrentRes.htm
with regards to dogs, i mentioned they can "distinguish" odor better (obviously, because what would the point be of having good smell of you can't distinguish the smells), but we can "interpret" an odor better once we know what it is (hmmm..apple pie, aunt georgie said today she would be cooking apple pie, therefore that person cooking right now must be aunt georgie).
when did i say having better sensory apparata made the mantis more intelligent (you seem to be stuck on this relatively unproveable point)? i simply noted (since you started on that parental care thing) that mantis shrimps beat octopuses hands down in a hell of a lot more things.
http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/logs/111600.htm
with regards to your points about two possible sources of intelligence, one
"predators evolved intelligence..." what does this have to do with anything?...they're both predators...on the other hand, mantis shrimps are a heck of a lot more social than octopus, so that's 1-0 in favor of mantis shrimps. btw, this new statement of your contradicts your older comments that downplayed sociality as having a bearing on intelligence.
here's cute pic of some stomatopod solving a rubik's cube, which PROVES it's intelligent
from: http://www.vthrc.uq.edu.au/ecovis/CurrentRes.htm
Pandora said:
Similar threads
