hahnmeister
In Memoriam
No, proline will not be handling ATB.
ATB 'Small' Cone Pan/Plate Skimmer
- Thread starter hahnmeister
- Start date
skimmy
T3am Zissou
awesome!!!
i want to replace our bm250 at the store with one of their xl cone skimmers, now, if i can just talk my boss into it...
and i think im going to start saving for a small for myself as well, i love that the qo3000 fits on there! looking forward to seeing that pump on there...
and what's a 'Matala-wheel' ?? im not keeping up..lol
i want to replace our bm250 at the store with one of their xl cone skimmers, now, if i can just talk my boss into it...
and i think im going to start saving for a small for myself as well, i love that the qo3000 fits on there! looking forward to seeing that pump on there...
and what's a 'Matala-wheel' ?? im not keeping up..lol
Hahmeister,
Thanks for the very good and detailed review on this skimmer so far.
Can you take a full skimmer shot of it in action, interested to see how much different the bubbles are in the cone compared to the KZ.
Looks like the skimmer is reasonably well built. Is that the seam right next to the standpipe where they mended the two end of the acrylic sheet to make it a cone? Also there seems to be a quite an amount of microbubble coming out of the skimmer.
Thanks for the very good and detailed review on this skimmer so far.
Can you take a full skimmer shot of it in action, interested to see how much different the bubbles are in the cone compared to the KZ.
Looks like the skimmer is reasonably well built. Is that the seam right next to the standpipe where they mended the two end of the acrylic sheet to make it a cone? Also there seems to be a quite an amount of microbubble coming out of the skimmer.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Julio, My perspective on that one photo might have made it look big, but it is about 8" in diameter.
When I woke up this morning, I had to shut the skimmer off because the collection cup was full, and all day yesterday it only filled about 1/3 of the way, if that!!! I didnt have time to clean it out and restart it before I left this morning (even though it would have only taken a minute or two I suppose), but it was full of 'medium tea' and the lid was bubbling off of it! I think I need to set it to skim darker. I thought I would skim wetter, but now I think I know why all the pics I see in the ATB www.aquariumtechnik.at forums are with dark coffee... if you set it to skim wet, it will fill up fast.
When I woke up this morning, I had to shut the skimmer off because the collection cup was full, and all day yesterday it only filled about 1/3 of the way, if that!!! I didnt have time to clean it out and restart it before I left this morning (even though it would have only taken a minute or two I suppose), but it was full of 'medium tea' and the lid was bubbling off of it! I think I need to set it to skim darker. I thought I would skim wetter, but now I think I know why all the pics I see in the ATB www.aquariumtechnik.at forums are with dark coffee... if you set it to skim wet, it will fill up fast.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
gabe3d,
Ill try to take a photo now that I think its broken in, with flash so you can see how the bubbles look in size. The other thing I want to try is a video though, like the atbskimmer.com videos, so you can see how the bubbles gather in there. It reminds me of a skimmer with a 'really big neck', because the bubbles start about 1/3 of the way up, and are just solid from there on up.
The skimmer is solid in build. There is a seam along the side that faces the standpipe. Its very well done though, and Im not worried about it. All the other bonds are 'welded' so they are pretty strong. I wouldnt suggest dropping the skimmer, but I could see dropping it from 3-4' high and nothing breaking. The base, 'bubble-pan' and lid seem to be a PVC type plastic... so pretty durable. The rest is all cast acrylic, and the thickness of the body on this seems to be about 1/4-3/8".
As for microbubbles, I commented right under that photo that that was how it was as soon as I put it in there. Anton Burian pointed out that the skimmer needs to go in 6-8" of water or there can be alot of microbubbles. I thought my waterline there was under 8", but it was actually about 10". The next morning, after things broke in a little more, and I lowered the waterline in the sump, there are no microbubbles.
I heard that someone else got a 'Small' model, and that it already outperformed the previous Deltec 851 it replaced. I believe it. Its not even a matter of the amount of air according to Anton, at least not with this body. He said that getting more air into this body would just make it skim wetter, but that is about it. The body size would have to be increased to really take advantage of a higher output pump... The venturis will be 3/8" in the future, but its not a major concern.
All the future versions will be running with threadwheels, unless requested otherwise. FWIW, it is a nice threadwheel... the arbor mount eliminates zip-ties.
Oh, and to respond to the previous question... Matala is a pond filter material that can be used much like enkamat is used for threadwheels. It is what Klaus experimented with on his way to developing the new 'loopwheel'. It has some advantages over enkamat. You can google it and see what Im talking about.
I hope www.atbskimmer.com is up soon.
Ill try to take a photo now that I think its broken in, with flash so you can see how the bubbles look in size. The other thing I want to try is a video though, like the atbskimmer.com videos, so you can see how the bubbles gather in there. It reminds me of a skimmer with a 'really big neck', because the bubbles start about 1/3 of the way up, and are just solid from there on up.
The skimmer is solid in build. There is a seam along the side that faces the standpipe. Its very well done though, and Im not worried about it. All the other bonds are 'welded' so they are pretty strong. I wouldnt suggest dropping the skimmer, but I could see dropping it from 3-4' high and nothing breaking. The base, 'bubble-pan' and lid seem to be a PVC type plastic... so pretty durable. The rest is all cast acrylic, and the thickness of the body on this seems to be about 1/4-3/8".
As for microbubbles, I commented right under that photo that that was how it was as soon as I put it in there. Anton Burian pointed out that the skimmer needs to go in 6-8" of water or there can be alot of microbubbles. I thought my waterline there was under 8", but it was actually about 10". The next morning, after things broke in a little more, and I lowered the waterline in the sump, there are no microbubbles.
I heard that someone else got a 'Small' model, and that it already outperformed the previous Deltec 851 it replaced. I believe it. Its not even a matter of the amount of air according to Anton, at least not with this body. He said that getting more air into this body would just make it skim wetter, but that is about it. The body size would have to be increased to really take advantage of a higher output pump... The venturis will be 3/8" in the future, but its not a major concern.
All the future versions will be running with threadwheels, unless requested otherwise. FWIW, it is a nice threadwheel... the arbor mount eliminates zip-ties.
Oh, and to respond to the previous question... Matala is a pond filter material that can be used much like enkamat is used for threadwheels. It is what Klaus experimented with on his way to developing the new 'loopwheel'. It has some advantages over enkamat. You can google it and see what Im talking about.
I hope www.atbskimmer.com is up soon.
I just realized that you can take the skimmer apart, that is very convenient for cleaning. Too bad my KZ can't do that.
I had a similar idea about the Mazzei venturi and putting it on the intake as oppose to the output which is a little more common. Seems like a great idea since it'll probably give you a better ratio of water to air. How much did it help back then when you had it on the Sicce? Also did you happen to measure the water throughput?
I had a similar idea about the Mazzei venturi and putting it on the intake as oppose to the output which is a little more common. Seems like a great idea since it'll probably give you a better ratio of water to air. How much did it help back then when you had it on the Sicce? Also did you happen to measure the water throughput?
Last edited:
woz9683
Premium Member
It's up, it's just got an s on the end. www.atbskimmers.com
franklinbeens
Premium Member
WOW! it must be exciting being in on the r&d team.
keep us informed. i want one too! (later of course)
keep us informed. i want one too! (later of course)
John -
Thank you for sharing these awesome pics and information. I know we are all very excited about these!
Thank you for sharing these awesome pics and information. I know we are all very excited about these!
DeltecRules
New member
Looking very impressive John. ATB looks like they are going to make it big in the US. Is Anton a one man show building these units? I know they are a small operation.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Okay, let me give some details here. My 125g (48x30x21"h) has the following fish:
Royal Gramma (2")
6 x solar fair wrasse (2-3"ea)
1x Temmincki fairy wrasse (3")
Pyjama Cardinal (1.5")
2x yellow watchman goby (1")
1x Pacific Regal Blue Tang (2")
1x Striated Tang (2")
1x Yellow Tang (3")
1x Red Sea Purple Tang (2.5")
1x Lamarck's Angelfish (2.5", but fat, very fat... like a guppy)
I feed 2x a day. 1x with Spectrum dry pellets in the morning, then 1x Rod's Reef Frozen Food at night.
I WAS dosing 6ml Everclear (95% ethanol) per day until 10 days ago. My skimmer stopped producing as much 'coffee', and so I assumed the vodka dosing caught up with the output of the tank. My water has never been so clear. My nitrates and phosphates were 0. My fish were also getting infections from all the bacteria in some way. Nothing that wouldnt go away in a few days, but cloudy eyes here, itching, and flaking scales there... so I stopped. The fish are fine again, and I wanted to give a 'benchmark' of some sort. So I will test tonight to see what the 'initial values' from the skimmer working will be (I dont think the skimmer working for one day is going to factor in much). My hope is that I have some sort of detectable nutrient levels, representing what my tank would be with just the previous skimmer w/o vodka.... as my levels w/ vodka were 0. If I could get them back down to 0 (assuming Ill be able to test for something higher than 0 tonight) with say, just this skimmer and no vodka dosing... that would provide 2 types of info. To me, what goes in the cup isnt important, its what is left in the tank.
So this is what I woke up to this morning... think I set it too wet? notice the actual particulate matter on the bottom. This thing seems to get alot of hard particles out rather well. Of note, I shook a carbon chamber in the sump, and little black bits came out. I found those bits dried to the collection cup lid when I cleaned it. Not bad.
This skimmer seems to work on a different principle than most. Rather than extending dwell time with height or by recirculating, it seems to try to catch as much water in a foam head. Rather than trying to make the proteins gather at the top by having each bubble attract a payload on the way, it seems more like making cream into whip cream, and then forcing it up in a non-turbulent, uniform manner towards the top, as if to catch all the proteins in the head and not allowing them to drain any faster than the rate the foam reaches the top. I dont know if that makes sense to anyone, or if Im right, but I can watch bubbles rise in the skimmer, and from about 1/3 of the way up to about 1/2, the bubbles that are trying to flow upwards just cant... they reach the 'waiting line' on the way up. So the bubbles sit, waiting, and perhaps giving a pretty long contact/interface. There are 'bits' of organic material that get stuck in the foam and I see them trying to drain, but they cant because the column of foam is so tall.
It seems the cone shape forces the bubbles that would otherwise be gathered in the top few inches of a cylinder to stack up taller, so as drainage happens in the neck, the organics that do drain have more underneath to come in comtact with. In that respect, thats why I say it reminds me of a beckett skimmer. My recirc couldnt do that, and it had a relatively narrow neck for the amount of air I was putting through it... but its neck was alot shorter. The neck was 8" tall, 3.5" wide, and had 1200lph of air coming up so I had to run the waterline at the base of the reducer funnel area and I still got medium dark tea, although only 1/3 of a cup per day w/o vodka.
So this thing reminds me of playing tetris upside down, but instead of having the full screen, you have one only 1/2 as wide. Yeah, tough for stuff to get away from getting collected.
Royal Gramma (2")
6 x solar fair wrasse (2-3"ea)
1x Temmincki fairy wrasse (3")
Pyjama Cardinal (1.5")
2x yellow watchman goby (1")
1x Pacific Regal Blue Tang (2")
1x Striated Tang (2")
1x Yellow Tang (3")
1x Red Sea Purple Tang (2.5")
1x Lamarck's Angelfish (2.5", but fat, very fat... like a guppy)
I feed 2x a day. 1x with Spectrum dry pellets in the morning, then 1x Rod's Reef Frozen Food at night.
I WAS dosing 6ml Everclear (95% ethanol) per day until 10 days ago. My skimmer stopped producing as much 'coffee', and so I assumed the vodka dosing caught up with the output of the tank. My water has never been so clear. My nitrates and phosphates were 0. My fish were also getting infections from all the bacteria in some way. Nothing that wouldnt go away in a few days, but cloudy eyes here, itching, and flaking scales there... so I stopped. The fish are fine again, and I wanted to give a 'benchmark' of some sort. So I will test tonight to see what the 'initial values' from the skimmer working will be (I dont think the skimmer working for one day is going to factor in much). My hope is that I have some sort of detectable nutrient levels, representing what my tank would be with just the previous skimmer w/o vodka.... as my levels w/ vodka were 0. If I could get them back down to 0 (assuming Ill be able to test for something higher than 0 tonight) with say, just this skimmer and no vodka dosing... that would provide 2 types of info. To me, what goes in the cup isnt important, its what is left in the tank.
So this is what I woke up to this morning... think I set it too wet? notice the actual particulate matter on the bottom. This thing seems to get alot of hard particles out rather well. Of note, I shook a carbon chamber in the sump, and little black bits came out. I found those bits dried to the collection cup lid when I cleaned it. Not bad.
This skimmer seems to work on a different principle than most. Rather than extending dwell time with height or by recirculating, it seems to try to catch as much water in a foam head. Rather than trying to make the proteins gather at the top by having each bubble attract a payload on the way, it seems more like making cream into whip cream, and then forcing it up in a non-turbulent, uniform manner towards the top, as if to catch all the proteins in the head and not allowing them to drain any faster than the rate the foam reaches the top. I dont know if that makes sense to anyone, or if Im right, but I can watch bubbles rise in the skimmer, and from about 1/3 of the way up to about 1/2, the bubbles that are trying to flow upwards just cant... they reach the 'waiting line' on the way up. So the bubbles sit, waiting, and perhaps giving a pretty long contact/interface. There are 'bits' of organic material that get stuck in the foam and I see them trying to drain, but they cant because the column of foam is so tall.
It seems the cone shape forces the bubbles that would otherwise be gathered in the top few inches of a cylinder to stack up taller, so as drainage happens in the neck, the organics that do drain have more underneath to come in comtact with. In that respect, thats why I say it reminds me of a beckett skimmer. My recirc couldnt do that, and it had a relatively narrow neck for the amount of air I was putting through it... but its neck was alot shorter. The neck was 8" tall, 3.5" wide, and had 1200lph of air coming up so I had to run the waterline at the base of the reducer funnel area and I still got medium dark tea, although only 1/3 of a cup per day w/o vodka.
So this thing reminds me of playing tetris upside down, but instead of having the full screen, you have one only 1/2 as wide. Yeah, tough for stuff to get away from getting collected.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
When you look at the videos, look at the 'small one readjusted take 2' because the others are from when he was running the water level too high. He was getting microbubbles as well I bet. It also causes a 'crest' of bubbles that gets caught about 1.2" above the bubble plate where you can see the bubbles trying to rise, but getting caught in the downdraft of the water flow.
In the 'readjusted' one, you dont even see it. Id almost say he should just take those two previous videos down, because all they show is how not to adjust the skimmer, but, in that same respect, it provides info to customers on what is wrong, and how to correct it.
In the 'readjusted' one, you dont even see it. Id almost say he should just take those two previous videos down, because all they show is how not to adjust the skimmer, but, in that same respect, it provides info to customers on what is wrong, and how to correct it.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
I dont know for sure. I know he's not alone, and I know he doesnt have a huge crew, but I dont know exactly where its at.
It looks impressive, and may i say it looks like it performs similar to the ATI. They way you describe it it reminds me of exactly the way the BM skimmers work. At least mine anyways.
I am still undecided in a New BK supermrin or a ATB. I dunno about the cone design i like the other large one they have though.
I am still undecided in a New BK supermrin or a ATB. I dunno about the cone design i like the other large one they have though.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
BK supers do look cool. Id almost be willing to say its a toss-up since we just havent seen a BK in action yet. By design, they share many concepts.
I dont see it as being as close to an ATI though. The flow in an ATI is different. You can see above an ATI that has had its body shortened, and its neck stretched. This would be similar. But the ATI allows water to exit further up on the foam column. So if I were a hard particle trying to get away, I would go with the flow up until just below the neck, and then drift with all the water down to the exit. This 'seperation/sorting' area in the ATI is more turbulent than the ATB.
The ATB mixes this area better. It also does'nt shoot 5000lph of air and water up a 7" diameter cylinder straignt to the neck... water and all. The ATB has much less turbulence, and because the 'cylinder' around the bubble plate is lower, the water can exit earlier, and can 'mingle' with the the bubbles in the midsection longer, as its path isnt being dictated by any internal tube. In short... the water is being allowed to take a much less turbulent path, even though there are some similarities in the foam. Still, the foam 'head' on the ATB goes pretty far down the body... almost 2/3 of the way down. The ATI's head doesnt start until past 1/2 way up where the neck begins. If you were to use a neck extension like mavgi did to his BM, then it would be more similar to this, yes. Still more turbulent though.
FWIW, Anton said that using a pump with higher air intake wouldnt improve the skimmer performance much. I think I know where he is coming from, or rather, what he is basing it on. The only way more air would do more (besides just meaning you skim wetter, but in this case, wetter doesnt mean better necessarily, just more water) is if the foam column would be taller or wider (larger volume), which means a larger skimmer body. I mean... what can I do?.. the body is full of bubbles as it is... putting 1200lph of air on it isnt going to mean much except the possibility of bubbles in the output of the foam head goes too low.
UNLESS... unless more air means less water turbulence. I could see that helping a bit. So I plan on removing the 'muffler' on mine (it only supports 1/4"), and making another DIY one for the 3/8" line, and using the ER volute until I can get an enlarged ATB venturi/muffler. I will also switch to the threadwheel since it seems that will be the preferred method according to Anton.
IDK, if more air doesnt mean anything, the only benefit I see of the threadwheel is more air and skimming wetter. It will most likely mean more water throughput as well (the threadwheel boosts air and water throughput). The 3/8" inlet makes sense because it drops the water throughput by increasing the air (yet the total potential is the same). In the long run, I would almost rather not have to clean the threadwheel / deal with it. Perhaps a 'matala' wheel... So maybe Ill just go needlewheel and 3/8" air inlet in the end.
Im happy with it. The woman is too... no more 30" tall 'big ugly' standing next to the tank, or a future 5' tall 'big ugly' either... although that still might be fun to do. What do you guys want to see from this skimmer?
I dont see it as being as close to an ATI though. The flow in an ATI is different. You can see above an ATI that has had its body shortened, and its neck stretched. This would be similar. But the ATI allows water to exit further up on the foam column. So if I were a hard particle trying to get away, I would go with the flow up until just below the neck, and then drift with all the water down to the exit. This 'seperation/sorting' area in the ATI is more turbulent than the ATB.
The ATB mixes this area better. It also does'nt shoot 5000lph of air and water up a 7" diameter cylinder straignt to the neck... water and all. The ATB has much less turbulence, and because the 'cylinder' around the bubble plate is lower, the water can exit earlier, and can 'mingle' with the the bubbles in the midsection longer, as its path isnt being dictated by any internal tube. In short... the water is being allowed to take a much less turbulent path, even though there are some similarities in the foam. Still, the foam 'head' on the ATB goes pretty far down the body... almost 2/3 of the way down. The ATI's head doesnt start until past 1/2 way up where the neck begins. If you were to use a neck extension like mavgi did to his BM, then it would be more similar to this, yes. Still more turbulent though.
FWIW, Anton said that using a pump with higher air intake wouldnt improve the skimmer performance much. I think I know where he is coming from, or rather, what he is basing it on. The only way more air would do more (besides just meaning you skim wetter, but in this case, wetter doesnt mean better necessarily, just more water) is if the foam column would be taller or wider (larger volume), which means a larger skimmer body. I mean... what can I do?.. the body is full of bubbles as it is... putting 1200lph of air on it isnt going to mean much except the possibility of bubbles in the output of the foam head goes too low.
UNLESS... unless more air means less water turbulence. I could see that helping a bit. So I plan on removing the 'muffler' on mine (it only supports 1/4"), and making another DIY one for the 3/8" line, and using the ER volute until I can get an enlarged ATB venturi/muffler. I will also switch to the threadwheel since it seems that will be the preferred method according to Anton.
IDK, if more air doesnt mean anything, the only benefit I see of the threadwheel is more air and skimming wetter. It will most likely mean more water throughput as well (the threadwheel boosts air and water throughput). The 3/8" inlet makes sense because it drops the water throughput by increasing the air (yet the total potential is the same). In the long run, I would almost rather not have to clean the threadwheel / deal with it. Perhaps a 'matala' wheel... So maybe Ill just go needlewheel and 3/8" air inlet in the end.
Im happy with it. The woman is too... no more 30" tall 'big ugly' standing next to the tank, or a future 5' tall 'big ugly' either... although that still might be fun to do. What do you guys want to see from this skimmer?
The turbulence on a ATI is not that bad as you make it sound.
All the turb is lost in the bottom of the skimmer and it rises less turbulent thru the diffuser.
I get GFO,GAC,Detritus in my skimmer cup too. I thought i was paying a compliment. I'll just lurk here and not post, I am not here to stirr the pot.
I am not trying to take away from the Atb either I think it looks very well built and i am considering buying one. I am still undecided though. I would like to see the BK running.
All the turb is lost in the bottom of the skimmer and it rises less turbulent thru the diffuser.
I get GFO,GAC,Detritus in my skimmer cup too. I thought i was paying a compliment. I'll just lurk here and not post, I am not here to stirr the pot.
I am not trying to take away from the Atb either I think it looks very well built and i am considering buying one. I am still undecided though. I would like to see the BK running.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
No, I dont consider it stirring the pot, I really do think the ATB is less turbulent. The only part that you might see as being turbulent at all is around the outer edge of the ring/cylinder that goes around the bubble plate. This section is thin and turbulent as bubbles get caught in the downdraft, but it doesnt matter, its just a narrow area where the water goes down for sorting and going out the bottom, sometimes it is taking some bubbles with it, and it looks turbulent, but its just this one section. The rest of the bubble plate is alot smoother. The total throughput of the ATB is about 1/2 of the ATI BM250 though, and through a bubble plate that is 7" in diameter. I suppose it depends which video you were looking at as well.
