Azno3

[Boomer]

I'm right here Marc

I told you at MACNA get giant fish out of FOT/reef tank :lol: And try AZ-NO3 or Vodka and start out in very small dosages and slowly raise them I would look strongly at Billy's and Carlo's suggestions but disagree on 10 WC. There is nothing wrong with large WC, some of us have done 90% but you need to make sure all your water parameters are in line. When I did them I always used a Vortex with diatom powder cake with a second layer of PAC to pick up anything rising form the bottom due to WC turbulence. Having high NO3- and lowering them quickly has no bearing on anything and is a old myth. It is the import water parameters that are the issue, pH, Alk, Ca++, Mg++, temp and Salinity. Those that have the largest effects on kinetics and I would also throw in PO4.

Marc how deep is that ESB ?

 

[melev]

4", max.

I don't have a diatom filter. What is PAC? (something Activated Carbon?)

Sandy Shoupe spoke to our club in January, and seemed to be a fan of detritus in the sump where all kinds of neat critters live and breed, but I tend to believe this needs to be extracted to avoid decay and NO3 issues. What do you think?

 

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10825814#post10825814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
I'm right here Marc

Having high NO3- and lowering them quickly has no bearing on anything and is a old myth.

Not exactly true Boomer, but let me explain. Some types of bacteria, phytoplankton and macroalgae are using the nitrates as food. There will probably also be some undesirable organisms in the tank due to the higher nitrates like algae and dinoflagellates which will die off quickly if the nitrates are lowered quickly.

So changing this level fast wipes out their food source and a quick die-off can contribute to other problems which aren't easy to identify.

Had the corals looked stressed or showed other problems I wouldn't have mentioned the slower rate of reduction and would definitely agree to get it lower quicker as that would be the "best bet" in that situation.

Depending on the types of corals in his tank, some of them may be using the nitrates to there advantage and would suffer from a sudden decrease in the nitrate level.

I took a quick look through one of Randy's articles and he covers some affects of calcification on corals with high nitrates in his article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm
Drop down to the section "Effects of Elevated Nitrate in Aquaria". In that study the nitrate levels were pretty small but in other articles I've read on the same type of thing with very high levels of nitrates not bothering the corals as long as the alkalinity is kept high.

In that section Randy mentions "One explanation is that the elevated nitrate drives the growth of the zooxanthellae to such an extent that it actually competes with the host for inorganic carbon (used in photosynthesis and skeletal deposition). When the alkalinity is elevated, this competition no longer deprives the host of needed carbon".

I hadn't really thought of that before but the sudden shift in nitrates could also stress out some of the corals as they have to adjust the amount of zooxanthellae too.

Part of the comment on the WC was also from personal experience with AZNO3 and rapid depletion of nitrates where the corals looked worse for a period of time right after the rapid reduction then they did with the high nitrates.

Since his reef doesn't look like it's being obviously bothered by the nitrates at the moment, I didn't see the point in rapidly reducing them. I felt a slower reduction pace would be better.

I'm not a fan of big water changes either so that also explains the comment. I'm more of a believer in lowering nutrient problems slowly to not stress the tank as a whole and allow the tank to adjust to the lowering levels. This approach is of course personal thing and people feel differently about it.

Carlo

 

[DrBegalke]

I used AZNO3 on my 55 g, as directed... Took my nitrates from 40 to <5 ...

 

[isjg]

Ok, here's some more info on AZNO3 -

"The activating ingredient in our product is Cozymase (a group of dormant, very hardy enzymes termed dehydrogenases) which function in the oxidation of proteins and of many other compounds important in the intermediary metabolism and the resulting active enzyme Maltase in the aquarium. The bulk of the product (Massecuite), like the bulk portion of a seed, is merely food for both the Cozymase to develop and the Maltase to thrive. The description of the Massecuite is the manufacturing process that renders the product distasteful to detrimental enzymes thus inhibiting their development and growth."

 

[melev]

Day 2

Day 2

Dosed 20 drops.

Tomorrow I'm supposed to dose 40 drops, but I'll just repeat todays dosage so as to follow the slower method.

That was interesting about higher alkalinity vs. high nitrates. My alk tends to be around 10 or higher.

 

[Boomer]

Almost exactly true Carlo and you reading into things again that are not there. Those levels Marc has are way beyond any affect as far as Nitrate up take goes and any limiting effect for any form of marine life using nitrate. Excessive levels way above any normal or even above normal liming will not be affect buy rapid drops. We are not talking here about dropping them to ZERO, another issue. If you want to argue 1ppm, as being excessive and dropping them quickly them maybe. And remember that data in the article is from lab tests and is not from full blown reef tanks, another whole issue.

As far as WC goes 1,000's of people have done large multiple WC as I, Randy or many others have suggested with no such effects as you have claimed. 1000's of people do 25-30 % WC / m and is what Randy often suggests to keep ions in balance for sup additions. Your probably were doing something wrong if you had such problems. You need to go back to Randy's article and LOOK at the NO3- levels he is discussing, we are talking for corals NO3 that even <1 ppm is excessive.

Excessively high nitrates are not good for corals and has been shown many times. I have yet seen any tank have problems or even someone mention having problems from dropping high nitrate levels other than yours unless it is a Marco algae tank. I see little of any real problematic algae in his tank.

Nitrate is not the only carbon source that plants and animals use and they are rarely limited in a reef tank for carbon sources. And looking at a pic of his tank does not tell anyone anything about the health of his tank.

So changing this level fast wipes out their food source and a quick die-off can contribute to other problems which aren't easy to identify

No they do not unless they are limited. And most tanks are by far not limited with a large WC. And Marc dropping his NO3- from 30 to say 10 or 5 ppm will do nothing. And as far as AZNO3 -
or the addition of Vodka they may be more of a problem if you are not careful, more than any large water change, as they fuel bacterial growth and if fueled enough will bring on rapid bacterial growth on fish and can eve kill them. This was recently shown at MACNA.


That is a pretty high Alk Marc, like 4.5 meq / l

 

[melev]

Boomer, according to my Salifert kit 10 dKH is 3.6 meq/L, so I'm thinking you mean that I would have to keep my tank at 13 dKH to not have a nitrate issue with some SPS? I'll just work on lowering these so my coral can be happier.

 

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10828024#post10828024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
Almost exactly true Carlo and you reading into things again that are not there. Those levels Marc has are way beyond any affect as far as Nitrate up take goes and any limiting effect for any form of marine life using nitrate. Excessive levels way above any normal or even above normal liming will not be affect buy rapid drops. We are not talking here about dropping them to ZERO, another issue. If you want to argue 1ppm, as being excessive and dropping them quickly them maybe. And remember that data in the article is from lab tests and is not from full blown reef tanks, another whole issue.

I mentioned the levels being very low but pointed out I've also read other literature with much higher levels and they agree with my observations of corals showing stress with a rapid nitrate drop. You can't argue with MY OBSERVATIONS. You mentioned it will have no affect on the tank but it does affect many different things including some types of corals that actually like the higher nitrates. Remember not all corals want low nitrates. I'm not even saying he has any of those types of corals but the statement you made just isn't true.

As far as WC goes 1,000's of people have done large multiple WC as I, Randy or many others have suggested with no such effects as you have claimed. 1000's of people do 25-30 % WC / m and is what Randy often suggests to keep ions in balance for sup additions. Your probably were doing something wrong if you had such problems. You need to go back to Randy's article and LOOK at the NO3- levels he is discussing, we are talking for corals NO3 that even <1 ppm is excessive.

Do lots of people do this (large water changes) and get away with it. YOU BET, but people do dumb things all the time and get away with it. That in itself doesn't mean it the best thing to do. While not the same, it's much like dosing vodka in a slow ramp up period and then completely cutting if off. The tanks needs/wants to slowly adjust to the new carbon/nitrogen level, not have it abruptly yanked out from under it.

It's like the old saying "good things happen slowly, bad things happen fast".

Excessively high nitrates are not good for corals and has been shown many times. I have yet seen any tank have problems or even someone mention having problems from dropping high nitrate levels other than yours unless it is a Marco algae tank. I see little of any real problematic algae in his tank.

Just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean others haven't. It's your opinion just like my opinion. There are also studies showing some corals like elevated levels and others that show little problem with high nitrates as long as the alk is kept high. It's neither here nor there what they like. The point I'm simple saying is adjust your levels slowly in either direction up or down.

Forget chemistry for a moment and think biological. What happens to the tank when nitrates rise, what happens when they lower?

Most people learn and get "move slowly" with changes to alk, ph, calcium, mag, strontium, iron, iodine, etc but fail to apply the same logic to nitrates. Tanks need time to adjust to EVERYTHING, not just the things we usually think of as "being good for the tank".

Salt manufactures know this and that's why most of them tell you right on the bucket you shouldn't exceed 10% a week or 25% biweekly water changes. Think about that. Why would a salt manufacture tell you not to exceed an amount? If you do they sell more product. They know it's not good for you tank. Not because of the additions (they should be close) but because of delusion effects. To much to fast is not good.

Carlo

 

[cthetoy]

Melev,

Keep us updated and your results. I too have high nitrates because of my heavy bioload. I tried sugar and vodka and it doesnt work. I was gong to try Azno3 as well.

Have you considered a sulphur dinitrator? Most people I talked to says it works very well. A lot of large European aquariums uses a sulphur denitrator as well. With you skills you can actually make one. I'm saving for one right now

 

[cayars]

That's my preference to (Nitrate reactor). Although once you get to ZERO on nitrates AND solve the nutrient problem (assuming you can), you end up with a piece of equipment you don't need.

One reason I happen to like nitrate reactors is because they drop your nitrates slowly.

You can use just about any calcium reactor as a nitrate reactor, just don't use the CO2 stuff on it and fill it with different media.

Carlo

 

[Boomer]

I mentioned the levels being very low but pointed out I've also read other literature with much higher levels and they agree with my observations of corals showing stress with a rapid nitrate drop.

Not at the levels that Marc has and we are taking Marc's tank. Cutting his levels in half will have no effect.

You can't argue with MY OBSERVATIONS

Sure I can anyone can, it may have not been nitrate. Nitrate is not the only carbon source in a reef tank. It have may have been something else. Your are assuming it was NO3-


Remember not all corals want low nitrates.

They also don't want 30 ppm, 15 ppm or even 5 or 10 ppm. And not all corals want high NO3- either and what are you calling high for corals ? It is not 15 ppm.

Do lots of people do this (large water changes) and get away with it. YOU BET, but people do dumb things all the time and get away with it.

No one is arguing that. I have not seen anyone bring up such issues as you claim. Your remarks are that if something happens don't do it. If the is the case all should stop using GAC, Activated Alumina , Ozone, Purple-Up, sugar, Vodka, nitrate reactors or a host of others that way out beat any posts on reducing nitrates and I don't even remember seeing such a post here or any place I can think of on what you claim to have seen. I'm not saying it has not happen.



That in itself doesn't mean it the best thing to do.

That in itself does not mean it is the wrong thing to do either.

Tanks need time to adjust to EVERYTHING, not just the things we usually think of as "being good for the tank".

That depends on what it is. As I said you are one of many and many do or have done some large changes with no issue. We don't' base things on just Carlo's incident/s.


Salt manufactures know this and that's why most of them tell you right on the bucket you shouldn't exceed 10% a week or 25% biweekly water changes. Think about that

I don't's have to, all I have to look at is what has been done by thousands. Did you ever think they may just be trying to get you to buy more salt ? Many also tell you to keep the Sg ~ 1.023, do you do that ? I would love to see people do 10% a week or 25% biweekly water changes. But many do 25-30% / m and that would fall in-line with your drastic NO3- reduction, if they are having a rise in NO3- and it is just not seen. Large WC are not uncommon by far. Or multi -WC in a short time. Again NO3- is not the only carbon source.


To much to fast is not good.

And the opposite is also true.

That depends on what it is.

 

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10832205#post10832205 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cthetoy
Melev,

Keep us updated and your results. I too have high nitrates because of my heavy bioload. I tried sugar and vodka and it doesnt work. I was gong to try Azno3 as well.

Have you considered a sulphur dinitrator? Most people I talked to says it works very well. A lot of large European aquariums uses a sulphur denitrator as well. With you skills you can actually make one. I'm saving for one right now

Since they cost so much, I haven't considered it. We were talking about these on DFWMAS just recently.

I'll keep posting my results. Dosing another 20 drops for today.

 

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10833096#post10833096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
You can use just about any calcium reactor as a nitrate reactor, just don't use the CO2 stuff on it and fill it with different media.

Carlo

The way it was explained to me, you only need one pump. Calcium reactors have two: recirculation and feed pump.

 

[t-bone2]

keep an eye on your anemonies ive read several different feed backs on the product this stuff is great but the anenomies cant take it good luck

 

[cthetoy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10834761#post10834761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
The way it was explained to me, you only need one pump. Calcium reactors have two: recirculation and feed pump.

I think you need two pumps - one to feed the denitrator and the second one for recirculation just like a CA reactor. You can use one pump if you gravity feed it or tee it off your main pump. The only thing missing is a bubble counter and the co2 tank/regulator. The drip rate is slightly faster than a CA reactor. One advantage of a sulphur denitrator is that you do not have to feed it as the bacteria feeds on the nitrates/sulphur.

 

[cthetoy]

Sorry, Double post

 

[Dr Begalke]

The second pump you are thinking about is probably a dosing pump to dose a carbon source (like ethanol) to the denitrator.. I don't think those are necessary though. you can use a syringe.

For a typical DYI coil model, you just need one pump... super slow flow... creates the anerobic environment for the bacteria... just about any air tight container would work.

I was going to try and build one out of a phosban reactor and some dead LR rubble on my 55, but I tried using AZNO3 first and didn't need to.


http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/nitratecontrol/a/aa092702.htm

 

[cayars]

Here's a pretty good thread on denitrators on our local forum (NJReefers.org) http://www.njreefers.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4537.15

It's a 4 page thread but the link above starts on page 2 where it gets good. I'm Carlo there not Cayars.

I even talked about making one from Coralife Calcium Reactors which are available in 250 and 500 models for well less money then any typical nitrate reactor you will buy commercially. Technique applies to just about any calcium reactor. I like recirc designs myself however.

Give it a read and post any question you have here and I'd be more then happy to help. Or start a new thread and PM me the address.

Carlo

 

[cayars]

Marc, what do your nitrates look like now?

Carlo