No, as long as some water remains the newly added water will soon be rich with the same bacteria that was removed during the water change.
Bacterial Diversity Methods
- Thread starter mhaith
- Start date
No, as long as some water remains the newly added water will soon be rich with the same bacteria that was removed during the water change.
Steve, Over the past I have run UV and Ozone. Don't think the need is there for me. My 1200 gal maintains ORP IN THE 370-380 range and the fish are healthy with no disease. Water is clear with frequent carbon change. I think Uv in a reef can kill some of the bacteria we are trying to populate. If I had a fish only system I would probably run UV Hurlock
Paul B
Premium Member
I am not sure about this but I do know that in a newly established tank with new water the fish look terrible and are suseptable to all sorts of ailments.
I personally change about 20% of my water 5 or 6 times a year.
I also don't think there is hardly any bacteria in clean seawater. Bacteria need something to grow on and they don't swim. That is the reason that newly collected clear seawater will usually become cloudy if kept in a bucket for a couple of days, sometimes hours. Bacteria, when it finds a place to settle, multiplies much faster than in clear water with nothing to adhere to.
I also don't use a UV but I do use Ozone.
In water the highest density of bacteria is to be found in the surface layer - the so-called biofilm, but there will be PLENTY of bacteria found in the rest of the water, too. They grow on nutrients, both organics and inorganics, dissolved in the water or found at small particles and some also use photosynthesis. Some bacteria can swim, either through the use of flagella or writhing motions of the bacterial cell.
philbo32
New member
The biofilm and the surface layer are completely different things in terms of aquatic definition, surface layer is the surface waters where the majority of photosynthesis takes place. Biofilm is the film of microbes which covers rocks, sand, objects etc and can occur at any depth.
Paul B
Premium Member
OK, I don't believe it but OK anyway :bum:
There isn't much surface film in the rough Atlantic and although I actually believe you I am sure there are vastly more bacteria in the substrait than in clear water.
I guess I will have to look closer the next time I am diving for the swimming bacteria :lmao:
Thats why we have you bacteria geeks here. I'm just an electrician.
Either way, I doubt we are loseing too much bacteria when we do a water change.
OK I should have said, they don't swim well enough to compete in the olympics. Any way, they probably don't like to swim.
Then the only true caveat applies:
MORE BEER!!! HAPPY FRIDAY!
Shoot - Paul I am in awe of your husbandry of your tank. I would not trust myself to keep a tank with the bio diversity that you have via UGF. But - Most though Lee Chin Eng was crazy bac in the dark ages - and now - use of live rock is the standard.
Maybe you will bring back the UGF in style.....
T
MORE BEER!!! HAPPY FRIDAY!
Shoot - Paul I am in awe of your husbandry of your tank. I would not trust myself to keep a tank with the bio diversity that you have via UGF. But - Most though Lee Chin Eng was crazy bac in the dark ages - and now - use of live rock is the standard.
Maybe you will bring back the UGF in style.....
T
Paul B
Premium Member
We don't want to do that, if tanks never crashed LFSes would go out of business.
Lee Chin was great at this stuff but he also cheated. He lived by the sea and used NSW and sunlight. If something died, he could throw it back in the sea and pick up something else but he did teach us about live rock even though he really did not fully understand the process going on. Even my mentor Robert Straughn espoused UG filtration but he thought of it as a filter that had to be cleaned and not a platform to house bacteria.
We have come far but we still don't have all the answers, only more questions.
I go with a more natural method somewhat like Lee chin Eng but there are so many ways to acomplish the same thing.
I still personally feel that adding bacteria from the sea is the way to go, unfortunately, there are not enough tanks out there using the same techniques to test. I don't feel four or five years is enough of a test.
We often see a gorgeous tank and want to switch to those methods but then we learn the tank is six months old. Any tank should last that period of time. even without food, but if that tank looks great in ten or twenty years, now thats a test.
It is nice to live by your water change and bacteria refreshment source - and free at that!
Everybody cheats I suppose in some way. After all - artificial salt water is the biggest "cheat" of all.
I agree with you - the test of decades is what tells the tale of husbandry techniques and practices.
T
Everybody cheats I suppose in some way. After all - artificial salt water is the biggest "cheat" of all.
I agree with you - the test of decades is what tells the tale of husbandry techniques and practices.
T
That is the main attraction for me...playing 'God' in a way and controlling and managing an ecosystem that is totally dependent on a combination of my knowledge, experience and my instincts. It takes a giant amount of all of them!!
I also give Cris credit for the saying "In a reef tank, bad things happen fast and good things take a long time". That is probably why he is TOTM!
I'm glad you, as such an accomplished reefer, still believe after participating in this thread that bacterial diversity and a constant refreshing of the system is still good practice. I have changed my opinion that new populations are probably not allowed a long-term foothold but my opinion that the benefits from the introduction of new bacterial cultures outweigh the 'disruptions'.
I'll call you to trade rocks!
HighlandReefer
Team RC
I posted this response in the Chemistry Forum and thought I would add it here for remarks:
----------------------
Jason,
Thanks for the link.
The remarks that Agathos has made in the posted thread above tells it pretty much the way I believe from the research I have read regarding populations of bacteria studied in the ocean, though this information can't be directly correlated to a reef tank.
For example scientists have taken samples from the ocean surface water at various spot and then analyzed the bacterial populations present in one gallon of ocean water. They have found that there are literally tens of thousands of types of bacteria in one gallon of ocean water found within the top 30'. If I were to use this knowledge and try to transfer what to expect to find in an average reef aquarium I would expect to find at least thousands, if not a lot more types of bacteria in a reef tank.
Other research completed on bacteria introduced into reactors used on tanks has shown that introduced bacteria do not compete in general with native species for the nitrogen cycle purposes. The research shows that usually several species of bacteria end up dominating the nitrogen cycle and the bacteria species will shift when the concentrations of nitrate, nitrite and ammonia are changed. Further research has demonstrated that the bacterial species will shift with changes in dissolved organic carbon content and type. Further research has demonstrated that the bacterial species will change if the heavy metal content changes in amount and type. Further research has demonstrated that the bacterial populations will shift with temperature changes. These bacterial shifts in species does not mean the the other species go away. To the contrary they still survive, but not in dominate numbers. Recent research has shown that bacterial species have survived for many tens of thousands of years, many in very reduced numbers, but still available if the need presents itself to make a come-back.
One might extrapolate from this research that every change we make in food, vitamins, organic carbon dosing, supplement dosing (heavy metals), temperature changes........etc can cause shifts in bacterial populations in the water column, substrate, rock, inside the coral tissues and in the secretion layers around the coral. Thankfully, these changes in bacterial populations in most situations are not a bad thing and the bacteria that replace the others are actually more effective at the job for nitrogen cycle purposes.
However, hobbyists do notice bad things happening occasionally from these bacterial specie shifts, IMHO. For example, some hobbyists will dose carbon sources (like vodka, vinegar, sugar, vit. C and amino acids) and notice problems starting. What kind of problems to expect from bacterial specie shifts would be tissue necrosis in coral. What happens according to research, is the new bacterial species that take over can (in some cases) produce toxins that actually kill the coral. Some of the toxins can be sulfur compounds or other organic sources that are very toxic. In other cases, the new bacterial will start physically eating the coral tissues and beneficial bacterial species. In many cases it is impossible to stop the new bacteria from killing the coral. Perhaps fragging the coral may help.
IMHO, the moral of the story is that every change we make in a reef system can cause bacterial population shifts, either for the better or worse. So, one should be careful in what they add, and make changes very slowly and carefully watch for noticeable changes in the coral color, polyp health and signs of tissue necrosis. One should only change one variable at a time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW, to add to what I have posted above, the same applies to other micro-organisms found in a reef tank, especially the cyanobacteria, algae, symbiotic algae within coral tissues and dinoflagellates. These other micro-organisms can change in populations for the same reasons that bacterial populations change and these other micro-organisms can in some cases, produce toxins that harm the coral. In other cases, the changes in bacterial & other micro-organism populations can cause color changes in coral that many hobbyists seem to like.
When playing with carbon sources, vitamins, amino acids, higher temperatures, heavy metals (micro-nutrients), changing food types, making major changes in water parameters, introducing new things into your tank and many other aspects of our hobby, we are playing with fire. Sooner or later someone is going to get burnt, which is seen occasionally in this forum.
I have been burnt several times, since I like to experiment more than anything else.
----------------------
Jason,
Thanks for the link.
The remarks that Agathos has made in the posted thread above tells it pretty much the way I believe from the research I have read regarding populations of bacteria studied in the ocean, though this information can't be directly correlated to a reef tank.
For example scientists have taken samples from the ocean surface water at various spot and then analyzed the bacterial populations present in one gallon of ocean water. They have found that there are literally tens of thousands of types of bacteria in one gallon of ocean water found within the top 30'. If I were to use this knowledge and try to transfer what to expect to find in an average reef aquarium I would expect to find at least thousands, if not a lot more types of bacteria in a reef tank.
Other research completed on bacteria introduced into reactors used on tanks has shown that introduced bacteria do not compete in general with native species for the nitrogen cycle purposes. The research shows that usually several species of bacteria end up dominating the nitrogen cycle and the bacteria species will shift when the concentrations of nitrate, nitrite and ammonia are changed. Further research has demonstrated that the bacterial species will shift with changes in dissolved organic carbon content and type. Further research has demonstrated that the bacterial species will change if the heavy metal content changes in amount and type. Further research has demonstrated that the bacterial populations will shift with temperature changes. These bacterial shifts in species does not mean the the other species go away. To the contrary they still survive, but not in dominate numbers. Recent research has shown that bacterial species have survived for many tens of thousands of years, many in very reduced numbers, but still available if the need presents itself to make a come-back.
One might extrapolate from this research that every change we make in food, vitamins, organic carbon dosing, supplement dosing (heavy metals), temperature changes........etc can cause shifts in bacterial populations in the water column, substrate, rock, inside the coral tissues and in the secretion layers around the coral. Thankfully, these changes in bacterial populations in most situations are not a bad thing and the bacteria that replace the others are actually more effective at the job for nitrogen cycle purposes.
However, hobbyists do notice bad things happening occasionally from these bacterial specie shifts, IMHO. For example, some hobbyists will dose carbon sources (like vodka, vinegar, sugar, vit. C and amino acids) and notice problems starting. What kind of problems to expect from bacterial specie shifts would be tissue necrosis in coral. What happens according to research, is the new bacterial species that take over can (in some cases) produce toxins that actually kill the coral. Some of the toxins can be sulfur compounds or other organic sources that are very toxic. In other cases, the new bacterial will start physically eating the coral tissues and beneficial bacterial species. In many cases it is impossible to stop the new bacteria from killing the coral. Perhaps fragging the coral may help.
IMHO, the moral of the story is that every change we make in a reef system can cause bacterial population shifts, either for the better or worse. So, one should be careful in what they add, and make changes very slowly and carefully watch for noticeable changes in the coral color, polyp health and signs of tissue necrosis. One should only change one variable at a time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW, to add to what I have posted above, the same applies to other micro-organisms found in a reef tank, especially the cyanobacteria, algae, symbiotic algae within coral tissues and dinoflagellates. These other micro-organisms can change in populations for the same reasons that bacterial populations change and these other micro-organisms can in some cases, produce toxins that harm the coral. In other cases, the changes in bacterial & other micro-organism populations can cause color changes in coral that many hobbyists seem to like.
When playing with carbon sources, vitamins, amino acids, higher temperatures, heavy metals (micro-nutrients), changing food types, making major changes in water parameters, introducing new things into your tank and many other aspects of our hobby, we are playing with fire. Sooner or later someone is going to get burnt, which is seen occasionally in this forum.
I have been burnt several times, since I like to experiment more than anything else.
Paul B
Premium Member
This is certainly true especially when adding man made additions that are not really natural or taken from the natural envirnment.
I did have problems when I was using kalk and tinkering with pH.
I don't tinker with water parameters or even test for anything anymore and I guess I have been lucky.
Tanks do go through changes especially when adding materials from the sea. I have been seeing cycles for years but so far, none of these were bad things. I find them interesting and am glad the tank is not static. I do occasionally experience short red algae that covers everything in the Sound and sometimes the tank is full of a type of pod or plankton that I have never seen before. These things have so far been what I consider a good thing.
I can't really say if the added bacteria has done anything and have no idea how to test for that. (maybe you guys do)
My test for a healthy tank is the spawning ability of all of the inhabitants.
Not just the fish but the crabs, worms and pods. These things along with fish should spawn continousely or at least attempt to spawn if they are not a pair.
Fish in the sea spawn all the time and if you do a lot of diving alone where you can stay and study the inhabitants close up, you will see the crevaces and nooks under the rocks just full of fry.
This should happen in a tank also. Of course if you have one of each species of fish they will not spawn but even lone fish, if they are healthy will clean a nest and chase other fish away. I am talking about fish that can spawn in a tank, not egg scatterers like tangs.
Bacteria is the driving force that ultimately keeps things healthy (or sickens them)
We think about paracites, parameters, and suppliments but I think more study should go into bacteria.
Just my opinion and of course most of it is just ranting. :worried:
"Imitation is the highest form of flattery"..................
After all - most of ust strive imitate the reef envirenment, or other biotopes- don't we?
I agree with you Paul -that the way we think about our aquarium envirement should mimic closer how and what goes on in nature.
Unfortunately for most of us - we are distant from the ocean and obtaining the sand, bacteria, and rock "refreshments" is not practical.
So - what would you suggest for those of us that are not near such a great resource as you have?
T
After all - most of ust strive imitate the reef envirenment, or other biotopes- don't we?
I agree with you Paul -that the way we think about our aquarium envirement should mimic closer how and what goes on in nature.
Unfortunately for most of us - we are distant from the ocean and obtaining the sand, bacteria, and rock "refreshments" is not practical.
So - what would you suggest for those of us that are not near such a great resource as you have?
T
Paul B
Premium Member
Well I guess you don't want to move so I think that bacteria should be available to inland hobbiests. It could even be quarantined if anyone is worried about paracites.
We import animals from all over the globe, why isn't natural bacteria from the sea available? I don't mean in those stupid little bottles, I mean in a container like fish comes in. A gallon of the stuff could be maintained in a tank in a LFS and sold in small containers like brine shrimp. Some of the sand from where the animals are collected could be shipped with the fish. But not in the same bag.
Just my opinion of course but the stuff is free and as far as I know, not restricted.
People ask me all the time to mail them a bag of mud. I am surrounded by the stuff.
Of course we have to wait for the end of this thread to see if adding bacteria is even a good Idea.
Some of these bacteria gurus would know better.
I am by no means a "bacteria guru", but I still think I can say that the answer is not that it is good to add bacteria, or that it is bad to add bacteria, but that adding bacteria MAY be positive depending upon what organisms are already in your tank (both micro- and macro-organisms), what concentrations they are in (especially microbial population sizes) and your tank parameters (pH, salinity, etc).
If your tank already contains a healthy ecosystem of different bacterial species that are able to maintain a stable chemical environment for your lifestock, or should be able to if you only gave them the chance, then adding additional additional bacteria will not do any good, and might actually be harmful to your tank. If, for some reason, this is not the case, then adding bacterial cultures, preferably from a reef environment, may help to restore the ecosystem.
The point is that determining the health of your micro-ecosystem is very difficult, and problems with tank parameters may camouflage as problems with your microorganisms. In most cases with enough time or just more careful tank-keeping, the ideal bacterial ecosystem will form again (it's just a matter of adjusting different bacterial population sizes, and this usually happens on it's own in a system that is stable).
So selling mud with bacteria would probably be a viable business idea because people tend to love miracle cures and tank-keepers tend to have money to spend on anything they believe would help them, but I doubt it would be a real benefit to many of their tanks (unless the tank has some serious problem with it's microorganisms). And personally I would go for bacterial cultures from actual reefs (to get the right combination of bacterial species) and not from somewhere else. The bacteria you find elsewhere not only contains those species in other concentrations but also contains a different set of species. What you would want is bacteria that has evolved to live on reefs.
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