bad fish or bad water

[cjcmcheek]

hello everyone. this post is about my recent experiences with purchasing reef fish from various lfs around my area(greater sacramento). before i even start venting about my issue i will start out explaining my reef tank and water parameters.

my tank is a 120 gallon *******e with a center overflow. i am using an external pump for all my pumping needs. i use one pump for my return and to power my protein skimmer, gac, and gfo reactors. the return is moving between 300-400 gph to the display. the skimmer is a warner marine R-150. my sump has a lighted refugium and shallow sandbed. i have a 1/4 hp chiller and heaters so my temp stays constant. I have a lot of corals in the tank, so im running a calcium reactor; the small korallin. im running a single 400w radium for lighting with t5 supports. i just picked up a couple ecotech mp40's which are freaking badass. everything is hooked up to a neptune apex so i know that my temp and ph stays pretty constant.
the water parameters are as follows. the salinity is at 1.025. the alk is typically between 3.5 and 3.75 meq, the ca is always right over 400, my mg is at minimum 1350. i havnt seen nitrate or phosphate in my weekly tests using elos test kits in a long time(i test for alk and ca daily, mg nitrate nitrite ammonia phosphate weekly) i dont dose anything i cant test for except amino acids and brightwell aquatics trace elements. the ph is at 8.3 day and 8.1 night according to my ph probes. pretty nice right? all my corals are doing wonderful. so what the heck are up with my fish?

i know that there is spontaneous deaths from reef fish occasionally. key word in the last sentence is occasionally. i would be hard pressed to say i can go out and buy 10 fish that will be alive after a week.i have been spending a lot of money lately on fish. for the most part i have never had a problem with corals from around here. fish on the are another issue. ive had tangs die, wrasses, gobies, blennys. for a long time i tried to pursue a "perfect" tank so anything i wanted to put in my tank would survive. it seems that i either really suck at reefkeeping, or the fish i buy are not healthy in the first place. i am inclined to recognize the latter. so here are my questions for my fellow reefkeepers.
In your experience:
Which is a more formidable task, caring for corals or fish?
Which are harder to obtain, the healthy coral you just couldn't live without or healthy fish you just couldnt live without?

I would also like to know of a good company that will sell me a healthy fish online because the stores here have lost my faith. hopefully i dont sound whiny. i doubt i am alone here

 

[2006]

1. Research common marine fish diseases and symptoms so you can identify them before purchasing.
2. Only buy fish that you have witnessed eating at your LFS and appear to be disease free or buy LA divers den fish.
3. Visit the RC Fish Disease Treatment forum to learn how to quarantine and treat fish.
4. Actually quarantine the fish you buy.
5. Only buy one fish at a time every 4-6 weeks max.

 

[snorvich]

1. Research common marine fish diseases and symptoms so you can identify them before purchasing.
2. Only buy fish that you have witnessed eating at your LFS and appear to be disease free or buy LA divers den fish.
3. Visit the RC Fish Disease Treatment forum to learn how to quarantine and treat fish.
4. Actually quarantine the fish you buy.
5. Only buy one fish at a time every 4-6 weeks max.

Excellent advice. Buy from vendors that offer a 14 day unconditional MONEY BACK guarantee.

 

[TripleT]

Assuming they are healthy and eating in the store, what symptoms are these fish displaying after you bring them home?

Sounds like you need to slow down, and QT a single fish at a time (for 4-8 weeks).

I'd start using a Polyfilter or Pura pad for a while (replacing every few weeks), in case there are toxins in your tank.

What fish are alive in your tank today?

Have you ruled out stray voltage from faulty equipment?

Do you have little kids, or is someone else helping maintain the tank?

Are all buckets, tubing, etc. used exclusively for the tank?

 

[Megatrev62]

Excellent advice. Buy from vendors that offer a 14 day unconditional MONEY BACK guarantee.

Where does that happen?Certainly not where I am.Once you leave the store-good luck and God Bless.

 

[SkullV]

Where does that happen?Certainly not where I am.Once you leave the store-good luck and God Bless.

Liveaquaria/Diversden

Where are you from?

 

[cjcmcheek]

thanks for the replys
TripleT-
here is what i have in the tank:
yellow tang
purple tang
lawnmower blenny
midas blenny
mystery wrasse
melanarus wrasse(err i think thats how its spelled)
yellow hogfish
a couple coral gobies
nothing outrageous... i have very bad luck with keeping anthias. ive never had one survive.

i live in carmichael, which is one of the first unincorporated towns outside of sacramento to the east. there is about 5-8 lfs within 15-20 miles from my place. sadly the fish that come in are almost always looking bad. who can blame them; all they can do is order them from a wholesaler. when they sell a sick fish, then you have to buy medicine for it. its a win win for them. for them to quarantine the fish would take effort. i dont know how it is on the east coast but people out here are freaking lazy.
i wont buy a fish if i do not see it eating, or if there is anything physically wrong with it. but what ends up happening is the dam stores put the sick fish in the same water system as the healthy fish. there are zero stores i know of that will even care if the fish they get is looking ok before they put it into their tanks. many are very thin, and it would not be uncommon to see cloudy eyes, and even the ich. there is slim pickings out here. i would rather buy a coral that is 100% chance of living than rolling the dice with a new fish.
impossible for stray voltage. i have a ground probe, and my apex would tell me if anything went wrong. i am the only person living at my house. if anyone touches my tank that i do not know of will be surprised if i catch them. i use buckshot for home defense and im a proud member of my local black rifle club. yes all my brute garbage cans are exclusive salt water buckets. i even run an air filter right next to the tank in order to keep dust from getting into the water.



what will i need for a successful quarantine tank? will a 10 gallon tank and a seaclone skimmer work, or will i actually need to put some money into it?

 

[cr500_af]

what will i need for a successful quarantine tank? will a 10 gallon tank and a seaclone skimmer work, or will i actually need to put some money into it?

A 10g will do fine for smaller fishes; larger specimens will be stressed without more room IMO (I use a 29g I picked up from one of our club members for $20). A good HOB filter and a heater are all you REALLY have to have. A skimmer would be OK, but unnecessary for the short term a fish will live in it, as long as you watch the parameters and stay on top of water changes.

I don't even use a light on mine (just ambient room light). Darker conditions are supposed to help stress levels, to the point where many people paint the back and sides of their QT black, with the front left alone only to observe the fish.

It shouldn't take much money at all to set up. One of our LFS' offered a "QT package" at flat cost to our club members, in order to help sway people toward making quarantining a regular thing.

It may not help you specifically, but I'll share one experience. When I first got into the hobby, I bought my first several fish (not all at once) from the same LFS. Every single one showed no outward symptoms, and ate in the store... however, every single one of them ate less and less over the period of about a week, and died. I blamed myself and my methods, and went around in cirlces until I bought my first fish from a different LFS. After it did great, I continued there... and they still have a 100% track record with me. I don't know what to blame it on, but there was something not right about the first source.

 

[Megatrev62]

Liveaquaria/Diversden

Where are you from?

Hi. I live in St.John's Newfoundland Canada.Marine stores have come and gone over the years but at this point we have only a couple servicing a population of 250,000.Have a local fellow who has been open for 10 years and he is pretty decent-NO OTHER DECENT ALTERNATIVES, but policy states- NO GUARANTEE ON MARINE FISH. When you leave the store with your purchase you have to cross your fingers. That's the chance we all take here. Sucks living here and having a marine tank. Can't even imagine living in a big city farther West and all the possibilities with the hobby-availability and guarantees and prices.

 

[Megatrev62]

Also, I see Divers Den and Liveaquaria referenced here all the time. Love to be able to try that, but I'm sure they don't guarantee purchases sent to Eastern Canada.