Bad velvet outbreak

[rioshilo]

A couple of days ago I noticed white spots on my arc eyed hawkfish and on the goat fish. They were only visible for an hour in the morning. After that they would dissapear, so we though maybe it could be just microbubbles. None of the fish had a high respiratory rate and they were all eating and acting normal. Then, yesterday I found the goatfish dead on the bottom and visible spots on half the fish in the tank. Several of the fish were scratching their sides on rocks, others were hovering in front of the powerheads, and one of the angels was just hanging out near the top. Obviously all trying to get relief. At this time it was to late to go anywhere to get what I needed. My qt tank was too small for all the fish to go into for treatment so today I went and bought a 40 gal and transferred all the fish into it and begin the copper treatment. Before going into the qt tank the ones that were affected and hurting the most got a freshwater and formulin dip. I got stuck by the tang, that kind of hurt... I also had to pull all the LR out to catch all the fish.

I do have a problem with the qt tank and flow-oxygen levels. I have a 200gph aquaclear hob, and I don't think it will be enough for oxy exchange. I tried putting one of the smaller powerheads in there (a Koralia 3) and it blows all the pvc fittings around. Any ideas for holding down the pvc??? I think I will have to go pick up a smaller ph tomorrow. I will also have to see how all the fish do in the 40 gallon qt. I might have to put the 20 gallon back up as well if I need to seperate them.

So... am I correct in my thinking of copper treatment for about 3 wks and keep the dt fallow for 6 wks???

As to where the infestation came from or what triggered it... I don't know. I added some frags to the dt a couple wks ago, and the flame angels over a month ago. There weren't any apparent stresses and the params are really good. I don't know if I can completely rid the tank of velvet, ich, or the like but I intend to give it my best effort.

All in all, it was a bad weekend. Hopefully I won't loose anymore fish, and from now on I will be quicker in moving them to hospital

 

[Playa-1]

Are you sure it's not Ich ?

 

[boxfishpooalot]

imo all disease is chemistry related.

What test kit brand for alkalinity are you using? And do you use a denitrator(sulphur based or carbon based)>?

Did you add anything like sugar/vodka or vinegar to the aquarium water?

What you can do at this time is large huge water changes. Preferably 80% or more at one time. Be absolultlely sure that the new water is chemically correct. IE the appropriate salinity.

What device do you use to measure the salinity?

I know how you feel, I once had this happen too. I attribute it to a-Saliferts faulty test kit and or b-sulphur dentirator. Or perhaps the fluctuation of alkainity within the extremes. ie-2.4 one day 4meq the next.

Do you do any of this?

The reason for the huge water change is if it is infact a chemical problem, then correcting it without relying on stupid hobby test kits, the salt will correct any misleading test results.

Also a uv sterolizer will help. Copper is useless on velvet.

Did you add any new fish lately?

 

[ArgonDreams]

With all due respect, I am not sure where to start with Boxfish's post. I am not sure where he is getting his information or how it pertains to a parasite like velvet.

Velvet is a dinoflagellate. While Velvet can subsist in tanks on a low level, similar to Ich, outbreaks are typically stress related. Stemming from changes in temp, SG, Water Quality, new additions, and transportation. However it's not in the least limited to these things, as it is a parasite and can attack at any time if it's numbers reach a critical mass.

The most common treatment is a Copper Sulfate in a QT. It's life cycle mirrors Ich in this regard. After feeding and maturing it drops off of the fish to divide into multiple copies of it's self to begin the cycle again. Hence the reasoning for using copper sulfate. Additional treatments are Atabrine (Quinacrine Hydrochloride), Hyposalinity, Freshwater Dips, and chloroquine diphosphate. However the most accepted treatment is twofold. Establishing good water conditions in the main tank, and treating all affected fish with copper.

Here is some reading material:

Live Aquaria Article on Velvet

Saltwater Aquarium About article on Velvet

Wet Web Media article on Velvet

Finally on the subject of Ich, If it is a misdiagnoses the copper treatment done properly with work for Ich too. Keep these fish at the proper copper level for a minimum of 4 weeks in QT. If you are positive on the Velvet diagnosis then good luck!

 

[rioshilo]

Due to the similar nature of ich and velvet it's hard for me to say 100% that it's velvet, but it's more of a dusting of white spots covering the fish. That and the critical level at which it is affecting the fish. Regardless of which one it is, the treatment is the same. I did a freshwater dip with Quick Cure for the ones that were struggling. Then they all went into the hospital tank and the copper dosing began. I am using Cupramine for copper dosing.


I use an API test kit and the numbers are checked weekly at the LFS. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 25ppm, Alkalinity 3.31, Phosphate .25ppm, S.G. 1.020. Refractometer is used for salinity. These numbers have been stable at these figures for 2 months.

Like I said, I don't know what triggered this. Nothing recent, but maybe it started a month ago with the angel introduction and just took a month to reach critical numbers...

The only fish that is really hurting at this point is one of the flame angels and I am going to do another FW dip and see if that helps her breathing and energy levels.

 

[rioshilo]

The flame that was struggling so bad last night and this morning did not make it. She seemed slightly better after the fw dip this morning, but when I got back to the house a couple hrs later, she was gone.

All the other fish appear to be doing well and other then minor spots (mostly visible on the fins) look fine. The initial dosing of copper has not really started to show up on the tests so the tank will get another dose tonight. I was surprised today by the lack of ammonia in the qt, given the bioload. I guess I just had this nightmare vision of daily 50% water changes being needed. I haven't had a qt with no live rock before and just expected the params to get critical overnight. Who knows, it might do that tomorrow...:rolleye1: Either way, I'm ready for it with prepared water... Oh yeah, one more thing... the alk test kit is salifert, not api. The rest are api.

I'm going to drop the salinity down a little also, if nothing else it will let more oxygen into the water for the fish and make it easier for them.

Heres to hoping we don't loose anymore fish My wife is so stressed right now:eek1:

 

[cloak]

Here's a good article.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

 

[rioshilo]

Nice article. It confirmed what I've read and done so far, and I found their immunity buildup experiment and the hydrogen peroxide treatment particularly interesting. Although the peroxide treatment at this point sounds too new to try on "my" fish.

 

[seapug]

rioshilo, how big is this tank and how many fish do you have in it? While I don't agree that all diseases are chemistry related, keeping too many fish in a small tank causes stress that often results in widespread disease among the inhabitants.

 

[rioshilo]

Stock list was 6" orange shoulder tang, 4" sunset wrasse, 4" goat fish, 3" lrg maroon clown, 3" ****** trigger, 3" arc eye hawk fish, (2)1 1/2" flame angels, (2) 1" damsels. Now it is minus 1 angel and minus the goatfish... The tank size is 130 with lots of swimming room...

 

[rioshilo]

Well, another day gone by and I haven't lost anymore. Current params in the qt are still ok, but I am doing 5% water changes daily to keep it there rather then waiting for the inevitable. The remaining angel still has a lighter dusting of spots, but seems to be fine and is acting normal. The tang still has a few spots and the other fish don't show anything. The wrasse is struggling a little (no spots, but rapid breathing and exhaustion) but that peaked last night and this morning and now seems to be on the recovery.



The copper dosing is now at treatment level, and so begins the 5 more weeks of treatment in the qt and a fallow dt. I hate this part...

 

[joeychitwood]

I hope you are able to save some of your fish. I lost all of mine to a Marine Velvet outbreak about a year ago. It went so fast that everything was dead within two days. The corals and inverts were fine, thankfully.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Its your alkalinity imo. Your using Salfert too. I will never use another Salifert product again. Not untill their test kits are nist certified.

Get an elos, you will be surprised by your newfound alkalinity number. Elos are nist certified.

you might want to search my name for a salifert post....

 

[rioshilo]

Regardless of whether or not the alk brought it on, it did not introduce it to the tank. A parasite did not come from a chemical issue... I still plan to keep them in qt for 6 wks with treatment, and I will pick up a elos test as you suggested. I don't know what tests my LFS uses to double check my numbers, but I will check that out next time I am in there.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Some people think diseases are introduced. Some think they lay dormant inside the fish, and when the enviroment stresses them, they can break out because of a weakend body.

Chemistry problems will perpetuate disease. I do not think any tank is without diseases. If it is velvet, then it was introduced because its a parasite. But there are other diseases that can look similar to velvet. But are infact bacteria! If you have a microscope you can identify it.

And did you know fish in the ocean can have ich, velvet or anything else? Why do they get it in such an enormous body of water?

There is somthing wich perpetuates diseases and parasite infection easily. Three things

1- lack of food-poor nutrition, not enough vitaminss,minerals to excute proper disease fighting properties.
2- stress(mental,territorial)
3- chemically imbalanced water fluctuations and shortages and overloads.


Good luck

 

[rioshilo]

The battle with ammonia has started... Current numbers are... Alk@3.31 meq/L, PH@7.8, Cu@.5mg/L, Nitrates and Nitrites are still @ 0, NH3/NH4+ has risen to .25 mg/L Temp is at 78 degrees

When I went to the 40 from the 20 gallon qt I transferred the hob and some water, but it wasn't enough I guess. Today I changed to 10% water changes to dilute the ammonia.

The wrasse is still struggling but hasn't gotten any worse, and the only spots remaining are on the flame angel.

I am also going to try lowering the PH (with vinegar dosing) and lowering the temp to change the ratio of NH3 to NH4+. From what I've read the ratio changes with regards to temp and PH and when those two values lower, the ratio of non toxic ammonium increases, versus the level of toxic ammonia which then decreases.

There is a chart on this page which describes the NH3 to NH4+ relation in regards to temp and PH...

http://www.aquatropics.com/filtration.htm

Any help from the chemistry folks would be appreciated. Let me know if I have something wrong going on here...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The 0.25 ppm is NH3, or total ammonia + ammonium?

0.25 ppm total ammonia is not enough to overly react to.

I personally would not try to deal with ammonia from a pH perspective (at least not starting at ph 7.,8 and then trying to drop it lower), although there certainly is an effect. I'd stop high pH additives, perhaps, but then I'd use an ammonia treatment, such as Amquel or Prime. You don't want to be stressing fish more with low pH or low O2 (from vinegar).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I give more info on dealing with ammonia here:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

 

[rioshilo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12291863#post12291863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
The 0.25 ppm is NH3, or total ammonia + ammonium?

0.25 ppm total ammonia is not enough to overly react to.

I personally would not try to deal with ammonia from a pH perspective (at least not starting at ph 7.,8 and then trying to drop it lower), although there certainly is an effect. I'd stop high pH additives, perhaps, but then I'd use an ammonia treatment, such as Amquel or Prime. You don't want to be stressing fish more with low pH or low O2 (from vinegar).

That was total ammonia. So according to that chart with my ph and temp that equates to .009 for NH3. So, should I drop the daily water changes back to 5% or less (which should help with the cycle) and substain from dropping the PH? What about the temp?

Your article was very informative, but I'm going to have to read it a few more times to get it all...

Is the chart on that link (fig 5) accurate for the levels of NH3? At what point do the levels of NH3 become toxic? I'm just used to reading that any registerable level of ammonia of the test kit is bad bad bad... There is a lot to learn about marine life and I have only been doing it for 6 mths so at times like this I feel overwhelmed trying to find all the info :eek1:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is the chart on that link (fig 5) accurate for the levels of NH3?

The ratio of NH3 to total ammonia is fixed by pH, regardless of the ammonia level.

Have you ever used this kit and found no ammonia? Often times there is error at the low end.

I wouldn't drop the temp or add any more vinegar. The water changes are fine.