Bandit Angel In Need of Help

[newaquarist]

I started this thread on the reef fishes forum and it seems unfortunately that I need to move the discussion over here.

My bandit angel has been swimming feverishly from one side of the tank to the other for the past day or so, back and forth and back and forth, though still eating and slowing down at night.

I called home to check on him and the nanny called and said there is a large red spot the size of dime coming from within the fish down by the tail... almost like all the blood is collecting in one area. She said its definitely not on the outside of the skin but coming from the inside, more visible on one side than the other but visible from both sides. And he is swimming very quickly back and forth.... she is going to see if he eats and let me know, i won't be home until this evening to check things out.... could this be an internal parasite?? Perhaps internal bleeding, which could spell a quick demise.

The fish is in a heavily stocked 180 -- though no agression from anyone and good water quality (nitrates 20 though) everything has been fine otherwise. I did have ICH at one point but no signs of that for a while on any fish and never on this fish, which i've had about 5 months now.

Any ideas?? THANK YOU!

 

[HumbleFish]

Could be a lot of things: internal injury, coral sting, Uronema or even a bacterial infection (septicemia comes to mind).

Google Uronema marinum & hemorrhagic septicemia when you get home, and see if either one looks like a match.

 

[newaquarist]

Thanks for the help Humblefish. It is definitely not a sting or Uronema. It could be septicemia, but I don't think so. Here are pics. Note that the red area is symetrical on both sides of the fish, which means that it is coming from the inside, i believe, perhaps liver not working correctly? Would love to know what you think after seeing the pics. Please let me know if you can see them! thanks!

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums...8-D9CF-41F5-8592-3187A9D29B68_zps1oahaqu2.jpg

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums...8-468C-4B80-B9BC-2BD5A5BA53C9_zpsawixufoo.jpg

 

[newaquarist]

Could it be the following: Since I had ICK a long time ago, I started Feeding Dr. G's medicated food before putting my last few fish in the tank, just as a safegaurd to prevent it from returning. The chemical is chloriquine phosphate. I've been feeding it now for the better part of three weeks, twice a day, since the fish (especially the bandit and the lineatus wrasse, which incidentally looks fine) seem to really like it. I frankly have not been attentive to how much I have been giving them, but I have not been sparing with it. I just realized that perhaps I am poisoning my fish and an overdose of medicine could have caused liver or other organs to start failing. Could this be? In retrospect, now this seems obvious to me. But I could be totally wrong.... thanks...

 

[newaquarist]

ps: If I am correct, I can only hope boyond hope that my stupidity can be reversed through high water quality and time away from the toxin... and I can refresh my carbon tonight just in case there are any traces still in the water... if this is it, i suppose i should know very quickly whether he is going to recover... but would love any thoughts on this... thanks!

 

[Allmost]

you mean the red by the tail, at the end of the lateral line ?

if so, fish's liver is towards the middle/front ...

following to see what others think.

 

[newaquarist]

Yes, that is exactly what I mean... as you will see from the 2 photos, it is on both sides... i mentioned the liver or other organs that may not be filtering blood well and causing blood to collect in the back of fish... sort of like when people get significant ankle swelling when they start to get reduced kidney or liver function... although even that i am saying through vague understanding, i am not a dr!

 

[HumbleFish]

I see the redness on both sides near the lateral line. As Allmost pointed out, there are no organs back there. The only thing I'm aware of that would be back there internally is the neural (or vertebral) arch. I would (for now) just wait & see if the redness goes away. If it gets worse, then possibly you are dealing with an internal infection of some sort, and you might try a broad range antibiotic in QT. There is no way of knowing whether or not CP is to blame for this.

 

[newaquarist]

Ok, got it.... Assuming it does not go away -- or gets worse -- I will set up my QT and treat with antibiotics. I currently have 2 on hand. 1, API erythromycin and Marycin plus (not 1 or 2). Would either of those be suitable or would you recommend something else (perhaps treating with both Marycin 1 and 2)?

I know its really hard to say anything definitive at this point, but from what you see and given that it is still quite active and eating great, does this strike you guys as something likely to be fatal? As a nervous Dad, I can't help but asking that...

thx again...

 

[HumbleFish]

Erythromycin would probably do the trick (if it's an infection). The problem with bacterial infections is there is oftentimes no way to tell the difference (without examining a culture sample under a scope) between the mild gram positive ones and more serious gram negative ones.

But IME, gram negative infections are usually introduced by a newly added fish who wasn't QT. While gram positives can seemingly pop up at any time. Usually on a fish with a cut or something, and the chances increase if that fish is being kept in questionable water quality.

 

[newaquarist]

So does erthromycin work against both gram negative and gram positive?

 

[HumbleFish]

So does erthromycin work against both gram negative and gram positive?

No, just gram positive. You would need to also treat with minocycline (i.e. Maracyn 2) to cover gram negative. Or just use a broad spectrum antibiotic such as Furan-2, which covers both.

 

[Allmost]

most fish, specially angelfish dont do well with Antibiotics like Furan-2, do you think its needed at this point ? or could it go away ? what are your thoughts humblefish ?

 

[newaquarist]

from what i've read, furan-2 poses a greater risk than maracyn-2 + maracyn 1 (or maracyn plus, which i understand works similarly to maracyn 1 but with a different compound)... so sounds like i should wait and see and if it gets worse, treat with maracyn 2 and maracyn plus... sound right?

i assume you would agree it would be a waste to try and add some melafix to the tank in the meantime in the hope that it may help some?

 

[HumbleFish]

Personally, I would just sit & wait. I wouldn't treat with anything just yet. Of course, I've told people that before, and the very next day they tell me their fish died. Or sometimes I get chided for being too trigger happy with the antibiotics.

If the OP decides to sit & wait, I would at least start soaking the fish food in vitamin supplements (Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-chem), and maybe do a couple of WCs to boot.

The problem with antibiotics is they either seem to be easy on the fish but not effective enough, or the opposite is true. The erythromycin/minocycline combo is basically just Maracyn 1 & 2. And while it's gentle on most fish, a lot of people complain that they have to treat with it for prolonged period of time to completely knock out an infection. Or it doesn't help when dealing with an advanced/aggressive infection and the fish dies. Furan-2 is better at knocking out infections overall, but it's not always the gentlest. And the active ingredients found in Furan-2 are definitely worse when it comes to appetite suppression. So sometimes a weakened fish just can't take it.

Edit: Maracyn Plus is a broad spectrum antibiotic which uses completely different active ingredients than the original Maracyns. It is a replacement for the Maracyns - so I would not combine using it with Maracyn 1 or 2. It might work just fine, but being I've never used it (or the active ingredients found within) I cannot say. I haven't used Melafix in probably 20 or so years. It never seemed to help me much but others have had a different experience. Probably couldn't hurt.

 

[newaquarist]

ok... thanks very much... i will see how it goes and report back periodically...

 

[newaquarist]

I just realizes that I also have in my fridge a bottle of dr g's anti-bacterial food as well, which is a combination of kamarycin and metro.... So if I do need to treat with anti-bacterial, this should do the trick nicely.... Does that make sense? Thanks!

 

[newaquarist]

Quick Update: Fish looks and behaving the same. Frankly, while the behavior still seems off, the fish is acting very hyped up, not agressive, just swimming like crazy, he is eating normally and I am not sure that the "spots" are at all out of the ordinary... it may just be the way the light hits the fish in that thin part of the fish, he may have always been like that, i don't think i would have noticed it had the nanny not pointed it out.... i am going to keep waiting at this point and see what happens, i don't see any basis for doing anything else... keeping my fingers crosssed! thanks again for all the help and i will keep the updates coming...