Bare Bottom pros or cons?

[HBtank]

A big DSB supporter here. Well really a big supporter of diversity, for which I think a DSB is essential.

These arguments are not worth it. So little fact, and 90% speculation. Both can work great, I juut see advantages in a DSB. I feel the advantages are wholly backed up by science or credited authors, where as the "disadvantages" that seem to be prevailent about DSB are not. I have yet to see any real evidence supporting most claims.

Anyways, I run 85X turnover in my tank and believe that a key to any tank, BB OR DSB, is flow. I have virtually no deadspots, and the ones I do have are easily processed by my tanks diverse fauna. It amazes me how quickly anything is consumed in my tank and the amount of life in the DSB and refugium (which has one too, and large rubble piles). I recently lost a large fish I could not access, it was gone in two nights, I had zero spikes. No skimmer could have done that. I laugh at the thought of a "nutirent sink". My tanks to hungry for that.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11224679#post11224679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hagakure
Do you have any references that support this?

If I lived in a lab, I can see where going BB would make sense. Since my tank's in the living room, I think it's more attractive and presentable with a sand bed.

As far as function goes, neither one is more successful than the other.

Unless a person has run SSB, DSB and BB aquaria for a number of years I don't know how one could feel comfortable comparing the merits or drawbacks of each.
Aesthetics are another issue entirely.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11225933#post11225933 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
It amazes me how quickly anything is consumed in my tank and the amount of life in the DSB and refugium (which has one too, and large rubble piles). I recently lost a large fish I could not access, it was gone in two nights, I had zero spikes. No skimmer could have done that. I laugh at the thought of a "nutirent sink". My tanks to hungry for that.

I used to laugh like that when I had an in-tank DSB, too.
The running joke was that you could dump Jimmy Hoffa's body in the aquarium and it would be gone the next morning.
As a matter of fact, if you do a search of old threads on RC it was a common recommendation to "feed your sandbed" to keep it healthy. What a mistake

here are a few facts that pertain to DSB type environments:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&highlight=burp

Keep in mind this isn't an argument for or against anything- too many people get caught up in that. BB, SSB and DSB's all can be put to good use.

 

[HBtank]

^^ only if all aspects were the same in the BB, SSB and BB tanks. I see very little of this.

I have seen many anecdotal "experiences" where people have claimed the saw improvement with a BB change, only to mention later on that they had also increased their flow, changed rock amounts, and upgraded skimmer quality dramatically when doing so. All based on the recommendation everyone gets whe "going BB"...

These changes seem to get lost in the comparisons. So do the people have switched back from BB.

Anyways, I read, reasearch, and do so A LOT. I am a "newbie" but think reading through mountains of other people experience is in many ways has more "merit" than relying on years of "personal experience". I really hate when people throw that out, I find personal experience to be far from encompassing on topics such as this. Its like doing a statisical study based on a sample size of one.

I will set up a BB tank someday I am sure but I have to see anything that compells me other than water that looks like air.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11226108#post11226108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
I will set up a BB tank someday I am sure but I have to see anything that compells me other than water that looks like air.

agreed- there's nothing like firsthand experience. You need to see what your dead fish looks like 5 years from now!
Incidentally, when I was at your stage in this game my thinking coincided with yours.
Back to this thread's topic, if you want to grow Acropora in a reef aquarium you seriously need to consider running BB in the display (IMO).
It's also worth checking into running a remote deep sand bed (RDSB) in order to help keep nitrates at a low level.

 

[Znut Reefer]

I've been running a sps BB tank for at least 6 yrs now. I have never had sand in the main tank. I tried it in my refug and had a huge algae outbreak in the main tank.

So I removed all sand from the refug and have never looked back. Algae issues were resolved. I have good success with keeping sps. Colors are good and so is growth. I've never considered adding any sand to my system. I have tons of flow, and a over rated skimmer. I'll remain BB as long as I keep sps.

Nothings broke here so why fix it? I think BB and a DSB can both work. Just up to people what works best for them. And the BB seems to work fine for me.

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11225696#post11225696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hatfielj
I wish such a simple theory could be true, but it really doesn't make any sense when you really think about it. In order for stuff to be taken out of the water by our skimmers it first has to have some degree of decay occur in order to release basic protein molecules into the water column. This doesn't just happen while floating around in the water. It happens from either settling on the live rock or live sand where bacteria and other microorganisms can initiate the decay process. SO, by taking away the sand bed you are essentially eliminating another area where all this breakdown can occur. Plus, the sand bed has a much larger surface area for bacteria and other microorganisms to live on/in than just a large pile of rocks.

Sorry -- maybe 20 years ago. My skimmer pulls out whole shrimp molts. A real skimmer, these days, is capable of removing large pieces of organic matter well before it has the chance to break down.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11225696#post11225696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hatfielj

Additionally, there's not just "a few worms and bugs" living in a shallow or deep sand bed, there's actually quite a large biomass of organisms living in the sandbed that you just don't realize are there. All of these organisms help to speed up the process of taking raw waste particles and turning into smaller molecules that can then be taken up by the skimmer, removed by carbon or phosban or further processed by smaller organisms (bacteria).
A sand bed of any depth most certainly does increase the amount of biodiversity in a tank and this is never a bad thing. A complete ecosystem, of course not, but closer to being complete than having no sandbed, yes.

My small bits of live rock have everything in them that a SSB might have. Infact, my LR prolly has some areas of anaerobic bacteria.. something a SSB wont have. I dont know what "extra" organisms are being held in your special SSB that arent being held in LR - i've got pods, worms, and plenty of bacteria in my system. I don't need more of my nutrients bound up a SSB that cant be properly managed.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11224422#post11224422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RoBolton
I found this in an article by Sanjay Joshi.

On coral reefs, the upwelling irradiance is also increased by reflection from the “white” calcium carbonate substrate found on the reef floor. In fact, on coral reefs this upwelling irradiance may be a significant portion of the total irradiance (Dustan 1982). This upwelling light plays a critical role in allowing the growth of corals on the understory of the reefs. Thus, the addition of a white calcium carbonate substrate in a reef aquarium also helps in increasing the upwelling irradiance, while simultaneously increasing the biodiversity.

it's common to see the white calcium carbonate substrate be replaced with 'starboard' (a type of cutting board) in BB systems.

 

[King-Kong]

but in all fairness.. it gets covered in corraline almost instantly..

I do know one person who keeps theirs clean by constantly scrubbing it.. I wish i would have done that with mine, before the reflected light caused GREAT polyp growth underneath branches.

 

[burton14e7]

i've read of peoples tanks crashing with DSB's after it soaks up and can't soak anymore.

 

[250G]

con - ugly (IMO)

Whether you go BB, DSB, or SSB, this decision will not limit your abilty to run a successful system. There are many examples of great tanks in this forum that use the various styles (and just as many opinions on the matter).

250

 

[chewie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11226454#post11226454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
it's common to see the white calcium carbonate substrate be replaced with 'starboard' (a type of cutting board) in BB systems.

Or just paint the underside white.

 

[SunnyX]

I have run Both systems and will give you MY take on the matter:

BB

Pros:

-You can direct flow anywhere you would like without worrying about shifting sand.

Cons:

-Looks very unnatural
-Lower buffering ability
-Less lighting


I went the BB route for 6 months and was unhappy with the results. In the beginning things were good, but over time I began to have issues with buffering and coral growth that I did not have before. The undersides of the corals began to grow pale and I had the hardest time getting the Ph to remain stable. Besides all of that it just looked too strange without the sand.

If you are running a sandbed an do not have ample creatures to stir and maintain it you may run into problems down the road.

Basically, both systems work.

Ill stay with my sand, works for me.

 

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11228240#post11228240 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chewie
Or just paint the underside white.

Yea, thats good fo about a month until the coriline algae takes over.

 

[em805]

I have a DSB tank and a BB tank and I see pros and cons in both:

DSB pros:

* preference in the look of sand over glass
* ability to keep sand dependent species, i.e. sand sifting, burrowing.
* a lot more area for bacterial growth and nutrient decomposition

DSB cons:

* constantly scratching your tank with sand :/
* cyano blooms from hell!
* after a while the sand doesn't look so white anymore
* having to use a gravel vacuum :/

BB Pros:

* always looks "clean"
* ability to use, RAWR! 5000gph closed loop in a 112g tank
* ability to secure frags directly on the bottom of the tank
* algea blooms almost eliminated
* seems less sensitive to parameter changes
* rockwork is much more stable

BB cons:

* can't keep burrowing type fish or sand dependent species
* corralline growth on the bottom of tank
* less natural look

That's just been my experience...

 

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11226409#post11226409 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
Sorry -- maybe 20 years ago. My skimmer pulls out whole shrimp molts.

lol... like to exaggerate a little?

I understand your point, but come on, you really have no strainer on your intake pump and "whole shrimp molts" are unaffected by your needle wheel pump?

 

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11228806#post11228806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by em805
I have a DSB tank and a BB tank and I see pros and cons in both:

DSB cons:

* constantly scratching your tank with sand :/
* cyano blooms from hell!
* after a while the sand doesn't look so white anymore
* having to use a gravel vacuum :/

All experiences are not the same, sound like you had to little flow or a nutrient problem.

I have not had a cyano bloom since the first three months, my sand is white as the first day I put it in, and I have never used a gravel vaccum.

 

[em805]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11229006#post11229006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
All experiences are not the same, sound like you had to little flow or a nutrient problem.

I have not had a cyano bloom since the first three months, my sand is white as the first day I put it in, and I have never used a gravel vaccum.

That's why I said it was only my experience... Don't get me wrong the DSB tank I was referring to had its good days and its bad days, the problem is the bad days seem to stick in my mind a lot better. For a tank that has been up for 4+ years I find it difficult to maintain a DSB tank in comparison to my BB so far... Also, I find it hard to believe that your sand is white as the first day you put it in without using a gravel vacuum or some other mechanism. The upper layer might me clean but, you will always get that rusting color (seen clearly on the front of most DSB tanks) on the deeper layers from organisms living in the sandbed.

 

[HBtank]

The color on the front of the tank in the DSB is photosyntetic bacteria and algae growing due to exposure to light, and only exists on the glass. It is not representative of the sandbed.

 

[anthias_lover]

I had a BB tank before but currently run a DSB tank. I have experience with pros and cons above. IMO, BB for acrylic tank if you don’t want scratching tank by sand. It’s a good idea to have starboard to support all liverock and prevent future coralline growth on the bottom of tank. DSB look natural and it’s nice if you can keep good flow at many death spots. If you have a glass tank and strong flow without sand storm, you fish and corals will be happy with DSB. I like my sand bed…ignore my signature

 

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11228985#post11228985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
lol... like to exaggerate a little?

I understand your point, but come on, you really have no strainer on your intake pump and "whole shrimp molts" are unaffected by your needle wheel pump?

Ok -- large identifiable pieces of shrimp molt. like 1/4 of the molt easily make it by and are found in my collection cup -- none the less, the point stands.