I am often asked by folks getting ready to venture into the world of sps corals, "What is a good beginner coral"? That is an interesting question which begs some thought and discussion. IMO, if a tank is ready to receive any sps, it should be ready to maintain all sps. The sufficient conditions entail appropriate lighting ( a minimum of about 5 wats/gallon), good flow (measureable in tank water volume turnover rate ), fairly stable and sufficient water parameters including temp, ph, alk, Ca, NO3, PO4 (phosphates and nitrates should be should be near zero). That's it. If you have those conditions, you can keep anything. To achieve that doesn't necessarily require lots of fancy equipment. In my 30 gallon office tank, I have no skimmer, a hob power filter, a couple of power heads and a Current USA t-5 loighting fixture. I have a low bioload (2 yellow tail damsels, an ocellaris clown, a Friedmanis Pseudochrmis, and a twin spot gobie). In that tank I have a huge orange monti cap, a Cali Acro Tort, and a red mille; all doing fine. This being said, it may be that some sps are somewhat more forgiving than others but I am not aware of any empirical basis for that assumption. I think for most folks, the biggest consideration when moving up to sps is sufficiency of flow, and deciding how you are going to add calcium and alkalinity...whether to drip kalkwasser or two part solutions. There are a number of great articles b y Randy-Holmes Farley in the Reef Chemistry forum on RC. Folks almost exclusively focus on lighting intensity. While important, it is less important IMO than flow and water stability. Curious to hear from others.....
beginners sps?
- Thread starter drbronx
- Start date
coolcats_13732
New member
Why do II have a sticky suspicion that after our conversation yesterday and my comment last night that this article was directed at me......lol. Oh well. I guess everyone needs to learn right?
daveverdo
New member
Although I am beginning in SPS, I have been in this hobby in general for over 30years and have seen things progress from not being able to keep any type of coral to the magnificent reef tanks of today.
Not all SPS require the same conditions. There are definitely different light and flow requirements. I do not agree that "if a tank is ready to receive any sps, it should be ready to maintain all sps" I only have 270W/gal of lighting and several SPS are colored up and growing very well yet others are not. I also only have about a total of 900gph flow in a 90g.
That is very different form saying that one should not attempt to keep SPS until one can keep any SPS, if that is what you are trying to say.
There are many SPS that require more flow and more light yet the Montipora and Seriatopora that I have are doing great. I do not think that level of flow or light would support more light needy SPS like some Acropora.
I also feel that LPS and Soft Corals are also often grouped improperly. Different LPS and different Soft Corals require different conditions.
All of these animals live at different levels on the reef and therefore different flow and light conditions. Some live in environments where salinity, temperature, and pH change rapidly and are more tolerent of changing conditions that others.
I also feel that Beginner Corals can be considered less expensive corals. I wouldn't go out and drop a load of cash on a "test specimen". As an SPS beginner I am looking for adaptable low cost SPS.
My experience is mainly with fish and I would not recommend a needy fish to a beginner. There are great fish for beginners that are nearly impossible to kill and then there are some species that need very special food and water qualities that only advanced aquarists should attempt to keep.
Just my opinion,
Dave
Not all SPS require the same conditions. There are definitely different light and flow requirements. I do not agree that "if a tank is ready to receive any sps, it should be ready to maintain all sps" I only have 270W/gal of lighting and several SPS are colored up and growing very well yet others are not. I also only have about a total of 900gph flow in a 90g.
That is very different form saying that one should not attempt to keep SPS until one can keep any SPS, if that is what you are trying to say.
There are many SPS that require more flow and more light yet the Montipora and Seriatopora that I have are doing great. I do not think that level of flow or light would support more light needy SPS like some Acropora.
I also feel that LPS and Soft Corals are also often grouped improperly. Different LPS and different Soft Corals require different conditions.
All of these animals live at different levels on the reef and therefore different flow and light conditions. Some live in environments where salinity, temperature, and pH change rapidly and are more tolerent of changing conditions that others.
I also feel that Beginner Corals can be considered less expensive corals. I wouldn't go out and drop a load of cash on a "test specimen". As an SPS beginner I am looking for adaptable low cost SPS.
My experience is mainly with fish and I would not recommend a needy fish to a beginner. There are great fish for beginners that are nearly impossible to kill and then there are some species that need very special food and water qualities that only advanced aquarists should attempt to keep.
Just my opinion,
Dave
Dave VG
New member
I think what Jerry is saying is if you are going to keep SPS don’t be half a$% about it. Make sure you have the basic requirements to keep all SPS. Good lighting, good chemistry and good flow. It’s no secret that most SPS have different requirements. It’s up to the reef keeper to know or find out what those parameters are BEFORE buying the coral. But clearly the three requirements needed as stated above are good lighting, good chemistry and good flow. And with that you should be able to keep any SPS, LPS or softies. It is true that some corals are more forgiving than others. Does that mean you should have the minimum requirements for them so they survive and not thrive. I think not. JMO
DaveVG summarized my point succinctly. Daverdo as well makes an excellent point by indicating that even among sps, different species require different conditions. The following paper which I once previously posted, dispels some of the myths about assumptions about coral care based on our somewhat arbitrary disticnctions od sps, lps and soft corals. If one has the stomach for it, this article is a great read: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/cj/index.php
Just because something is called sps, doesn't automatically designate its ideal requirements or level of care. Different sps live at all levels of the natural reef from turgid lagoons, to the deep reef slopes. Often, sps reside right alongside forests of soft corals, so that clearly one cannot oversimplify coral requirements on any simple toxonomy basis. The bottom line is that we barely understand the complex and interacting factors that inflouence coral health, growth, coloration etc. My own experience reveals that by using good reef husbandry practices, most corals can thrive well. In fact, I have had fewer difficulties maintaining good sps health than some soft corals even though the later are considered more hardy. Go figure.
Just because something is called sps, doesn't automatically designate its ideal requirements or level of care. Different sps live at all levels of the natural reef from turgid lagoons, to the deep reef slopes. Often, sps reside right alongside forests of soft corals, so that clearly one cannot oversimplify coral requirements on any simple toxonomy basis. The bottom line is that we barely understand the complex and interacting factors that inflouence coral health, growth, coloration etc. My own experience reveals that by using good reef husbandry practices, most corals can thrive well. In fact, I have had fewer difficulties maintaining good sps health than some soft corals even though the later are considered more hardy. Go figure.
daveverdo
New member
Why?
If all I want to keep is a species of Montipora that only requires moderate light why should I go out and buy high intensity lighting?
I am getting color and growth with what I have, why do I need more?
That is like saying if I am comfortable with my house thermostat set at 65, I should still set it at 70 because that is more generally accepted.
I feel I am a successful, responsible hobbyist and I will keep corals that I am capable of keeping on my budget. I don't think I should exclude keeping one species of coral (e.g. Seriatopora) because I can't keep something else (e.g. Acropora).
I feel my yard and lifestyle precludes me from keeping an Australian Sheepdog (requires space to exercise). Does that mean I cannot enjoy the company of any dog?
I know the limitations of my tank and I often ask for advise on what specific corals can I keep under the conditions that exist. I get answers from NO SPS to ANY SPS. Those answers are not very helpful. There are only a few people here an on URS that ever say "you can keep SPS XYZ, but SPS ABC will never survive under those lights"
I think some of us SPS beginners are looking for those types of answers. I feel the ALL or NOTHING answers are from the less experienced and less knowledgable who aren't really sure what species of SPS require different conditions.
Dave
dreaminmel
New member
I think part of it is that sometimes people can't keep corals and assume it was for a certain reason when maybe it was due to another unknown factor. I'll also say that there seem to be some people who see SPS and immediately think Acropora rather than all of the others that fall under that category.
This may not apply in all scenarios but I was able to keep many kinds of montipora and birdsnest in my 72g bowfront with 265watts of Power Compact lighting. Their colors and growth were fine. I then turned around and got an order of 20 acro frags. Their colors and growth were non-existant but they lived for about six months in those conditions until I upgraded to a larger tank with more flow and two 400w halides. They then colored up nicely and started growing. This is where I would take Dave's statement to heart as I should not have subjected those acro frags to "barely acceptable" conditions for the six months that I did. Had I not upgraded, their existance would have been worthless and a waste.
Best I can advise when looking at opinions and answers on coral suggestions is to listen to those who have been around the block for a while and have experienced a few different setups. If I had never kept pink bnest in my 72g w/ PC lighting and only had the experience of not being able to keep them alive in my current high light/high flow tank then I'd be apt to call them difficult. However, since I was able to keep them before I know they can be quite easy in different circumstances.
This may not apply in all scenarios but I was able to keep many kinds of montipora and birdsnest in my 72g bowfront with 265watts of Power Compact lighting. Their colors and growth were fine. I then turned around and got an order of 20 acro frags. Their colors and growth were non-existant but they lived for about six months in those conditions until I upgraded to a larger tank with more flow and two 400w halides. They then colored up nicely and started growing. This is where I would take Dave's statement to heart as I should not have subjected those acro frags to "barely acceptable" conditions for the six months that I did. Had I not upgraded, their existance would have been worthless and a waste.
Best I can advise when looking at opinions and answers on coral suggestions is to listen to those who have been around the block for a while and have experienced a few different setups. If I had never kept pink bnest in my 72g w/ PC lighting and only had the experience of not being able to keep them alive in my current high light/high flow tank then I'd be apt to call them difficult. However, since I was able to keep them before I know they can be quite easy in different circumstances.
truebeliever71
Premium Member
Even though I'm still a "newbie" to saltwater I'm going to add my 2 cents in here.
Here's a couple points that I've found helpful...
1 - have a stable tank... get the basics right like stated above. From my research 6 to 8 months is the time it takes for a tank to mature.
2 - RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH!!! JUST DO IT! Look at who has a successful tank and listen to them. If you're considering a new fish or coral... google it. Find out what the requirements are of the fish or coral you're looking at. JUST KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING INTO!
Here's a couple points that I've found helpful...
1 - have a stable tank... get the basics right like stated above. From my research 6 to 8 months is the time it takes for a tank to mature.
2 - RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH!!! JUST DO IT! Look at who has a successful tank and listen to them. If you're considering a new fish or coral... google it. Find out what the requirements are of the fish or coral you're looking at. JUST KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING INTO!
Last edited:
It's very cool to see a spirited and thoughtful discussion in this forum which was my primary intent in posting this thread.
I believe, ultimately, this is an empirical question. I have devoted a lot of effort to try to establish the floor for conditions necessary to keep sps of various kinds. I have sometimes been referred to as the "frugal reefer" due to the very barebones conditions under which I have maintained sps.
I do believe that we often overestimate the role of lighting with even acropora coral species. I have had many discussions with Steve Lowe, Nate Rogers and other notable reef enthusiasts on this topic. I myself have raised acropora under pc, vho, HO as well as 175, 250 and 400 watt halide configurations. I have had good results with all, although the best response (growth plus coloration) has been with 175 watt 10k halides supplemented with vho. However corals did fine with other lights albeit growth rate and/or colration may have been somewhat compromised (including with 400 watt halides). At GARF, most of their acropora are raised under VHO only systems. My own observation is that stability of parameters as well as flow are the more critical factors in acropora success. Vince (fatrip) and Nate has exhibited the effect of coloring up acropora by increasing flow with no alteration in light.
However, in support of Daverdo's argument, it certainly may be that certain corals are more forgiving than others for certain tank conditions. The commonly held belief is that montipora is more hardy than acropora and that tricolor acroporas are less hardy than say, milleporas. I personally have not found that to be true. I have had montis fail when acroporas held up fine etc. I;ve had milles fail when all else have done fine. Unfortunately, I have had a lot of experience with sps failures during my time with the zoo tank. Unstable conditions (temperature, water chemistry) have typically been the cause of sps failures. I have seen no pattern in the order of sps deaths with regard to species. When conditions are good, they all do well. When conditions falter, the pattern of deaths seems to have no differential representation among any given species. That is just my own personal obhservation. Others may certainly have other experiences which I would love to hear. Ultimately, only controlled research can offer a sound conclusion.
I believe, ultimately, this is an empirical question. I have devoted a lot of effort to try to establish the floor for conditions necessary to keep sps of various kinds. I have sometimes been referred to as the "frugal reefer" due to the very barebones conditions under which I have maintained sps.
I do believe that we often overestimate the role of lighting with even acropora coral species. I have had many discussions with Steve Lowe, Nate Rogers and other notable reef enthusiasts on this topic. I myself have raised acropora under pc, vho, HO as well as 175, 250 and 400 watt halide configurations. I have had good results with all, although the best response (growth plus coloration) has been with 175 watt 10k halides supplemented with vho. However corals did fine with other lights albeit growth rate and/or colration may have been somewhat compromised (including with 400 watt halides). At GARF, most of their acropora are raised under VHO only systems. My own observation is that stability of parameters as well as flow are the more critical factors in acropora success. Vince (fatrip) and Nate has exhibited the effect of coloring up acropora by increasing flow with no alteration in light.
However, in support of Daverdo's argument, it certainly may be that certain corals are more forgiving than others for certain tank conditions. The commonly held belief is that montipora is more hardy than acropora and that tricolor acroporas are less hardy than say, milleporas. I personally have not found that to be true. I have had montis fail when acroporas held up fine etc. I;ve had milles fail when all else have done fine. Unfortunately, I have had a lot of experience with sps failures during my time with the zoo tank. Unstable conditions (temperature, water chemistry) have typically been the cause of sps failures. I have seen no pattern in the order of sps deaths with regard to species. When conditions are good, they all do well. When conditions falter, the pattern of deaths seems to have no differential representation among any given species. That is just my own personal obhservation. Others may certainly have other experiences which I would love to hear. Ultimately, only controlled research can offer a sound conclusion.
Dave VG
New member
daveverdo in this one statement you show immense disrespect and ignorance:
I feel the ALL or NOTHING answers are from the less experienced and less knowledgable who aren't really sure what species of SPS require different conditions.
drbronx is one of the top reef keepers here. Most reef keepers here have forgotten more than you will probably ever know about keeping corals. That statement was uncalled for.
I feel the ALL or NOTHING answers are from the less experienced and less knowledgable who aren't really sure what species of SPS require different conditions.
drbronx is one of the top reef keepers here. Most reef keepers here have forgotten more than you will probably ever know about keeping corals. That statement was uncalled for.
Dave....I didn't take Daverdo's comment as a personal attack. Even if it was, I can shrug it off. We can disagree on issues and still engage in a respectful dialogue. We need to all maintain humility in the knowledge that we are dealing with a very complex marine ecosystem that we are attempting to re-establish in little glass boxes. As much as we think we know, we are all just neophytyes. What makes this hobby so cool, is that virtually anybody's guess is as good as anyone elses. We are all neophytes. Thus we are all expressing opinions. Who knows what the truth really is? So lets all be cool and enjoy this amazing hobby.
daveverdo
New member
Dave_VG
I did not mean to attack any one individual. All I mean is that for one person to group all SPS into a single category shows ignorance. If you feel I was talk
I do not believe drbronx has done that. Others do. In fact, drbronx has referenced material citing the opposite right here in this thread.
I am entitled to my opinion and regardless of what you think it is an educated one. Just because I have not been part of your little group doesn't mean I don't know anything. All I am saying is blanket answers don't help anyone.
I also don't think you should tell fight other people's battles for them. It seems as though you just want to create hard feelings where none were intended. Maybe you should butt out if you don't have anything constructive to say.
Dave
I did not mean to attack any one individual. All I mean is that for one person to group all SPS into a single category shows ignorance. If you feel I was talk
I do not believe drbronx has done that. Others do. In fact, drbronx has referenced material citing the opposite right here in this thread.
I am entitled to my opinion and regardless of what you think it is an educated one. Just because I have not been part of your little group doesn't mean I don't know anything. All I am saying is blanket answers don't help anyone.
I also don't think you should tell fight other people's battles for them. It seems as though you just want to create hard feelings where none were intended. Maybe you should butt out if you don't have anything constructive to say.
Dave
coolcats_13732
New member
Personal attacks set aside. I saw drbronx tanks and let me tell you. I was nothing but amazed. I have seen many salt water tanks and there are 5 right now that stand out. They are Adams,Pirc's,drbronx,Anthony's, and Teds. These guys know their business when it comes to reefs. I could only hope to learn a fraction of what they all know. Hell, if I knew even that much maybe I wouldn't look like such a goof with some of the questions that I've had....lol. Anyhow I have done alot of time on the puter researching alot of this stuff and am not yet educated enough to make a sensible comment on this issue, but do have a question....Why is it that when you buy different types of coral do they tell you that you have to mortgage your home your car and everything else (not really) to buy these different things for each coral when you can keep alot of the different types of coral as you said with having less. Is it just a way for them to make money off of those that don't know any better? Just curious, have found through my learning stages that just asking these types of questions help more than reading all the articles. Too bad they don't make cliff notes like for tests in high school for these tanks.
truebeliever71
Premium Member
Craig - coolcats,
It's just like every other industry out there... it's either they want to make sales or they just don't know what they're talking about. That's why in my last post I said that we need to do the research ourselves. We cannot trust what just one person says. If a particular coral catches your fancy, don't give into impulse and snatch it up. Get online, go to the library (they do have a lot of good books in our libraries... especially the Finger Lakes Library System that the Apalachin Library is part of), and talk to the people that have that coral and are having success with them.
There are some great articles on this forum by Randy Holmes-Farley, I and others have referenced them before. READ THEM! He's a chemist and has been the hobby for many many years. BTW, the book I told you about by Walter Adey, you can get it through the FLLS. It's an older edition but still very relevant. If you try to it through Barnes & Nobel it's like $75 or $80.
Also, I've found that even though the folks on this site are very helpful and don't mind answering the same questions over and over, but it best to search the subject. Because, the question probably has been answered a dozen times or so.
It's just like every other industry out there... it's either they want to make sales or they just don't know what they're talking about. That's why in my last post I said that we need to do the research ourselves. We cannot trust what just one person says. If a particular coral catches your fancy, don't give into impulse and snatch it up. Get online, go to the library (they do have a lot of good books in our libraries... especially the Finger Lakes Library System that the Apalachin Library is part of), and talk to the people that have that coral and are having success with them.
There are some great articles on this forum by Randy Holmes-Farley, I and others have referenced them before. READ THEM! He's a chemist and has been the hobby for many many years. BTW, the book I told you about by Walter Adey, you can get it through the FLLS. It's an older edition but still very relevant. If you try to it through Barnes & Nobel it's like $75 or $80.
Also, I've found that even though the folks on this site are very helpful and don't mind answering the same questions over and over, but it best to search the subject. Because, the question probably has been answered a dozen times or so.
thepircs
Member
Why can't we all just get along....
I think that it is pretty neat that we have some new blood out here excited about this fantastic hobby of ours. We sure would hate for them to get turned off by seeing us behaving badly.
New guys: Keep asking questions! The dumb questions are the ones that we don't ask. (Every question is always going to sound dumb to somebody out there...) There is different strokes for different folks. I still have BioBalls in a couple of my overflows and my tanks are flourishing. I do frequent water changes, some people don't. Some skim, some don't. Some guys use nothing but RO water, some use municiple tap water.
Reefkeepers tend to be an opinionated bunch(We all know what opinions are like, and most of them stink). You can ask most of us questions any time and it is for you to decide if our answers seem like BS to you. I can guarantee you that we will not always have the same answers. We all still have a lot to learn so just keep your mind open and decide for yourself what feels right for you.
Dave
I think that it is pretty neat that we have some new blood out here excited about this fantastic hobby of ours. We sure would hate for them to get turned off by seeing us behaving badly.
New guys: Keep asking questions! The dumb questions are the ones that we don't ask. (Every question is always going to sound dumb to somebody out there...) There is different strokes for different folks. I still have BioBalls in a couple of my overflows and my tanks are flourishing. I do frequent water changes, some people don't. Some skim, some don't. Some guys use nothing but RO water, some use municiple tap water.
Reefkeepers tend to be an opinionated bunch(We all know what opinions are like, and most of them stink). You can ask most of us questions any time and it is for you to decide if our answers seem like BS to you. I can guarantee you that we will not always have the same answers. We all still have a lot to learn so just keep your mind open and decide for yourself what feels right for you.
Dave
Piazzon12
New member
Tanks have basic requirements... how you address them equipment wise is a personal choice. It's like buying either a corvette or a ford escort. low tech or high tech is just a personal preferece, and needs vary by tank.
Lighting: we all know these choices.. and the only thing anyone can agree upon is that reflectors are important
Flow: you can buy $200 vortec's or $30 MJmods (or anything else for that matter)... both will work
Filtration (nutrient and waste export): Skimmers, refuges, natural(live rock or Bioballs), DSB (deep sand bed), filter floss, water changes, etc
Supplements: you can buy they expensive name brand stuff or just use the following: baking soda, ms wages pickling lime, Calcium carbonate, and Magnesium sulfide/hydroxide (same ingredients, just much cheaper)
I myself tend to be a minimalist, it's the only way I can afford to be in the hobby... although I'd love the bells and whistles of all the fancy stuff out there, I'd never be able to keep up with the cost. It's all a personal choice
Lighting: we all know these choices.. and the only thing anyone can agree upon is that reflectors are important
Flow: you can buy $200 vortec's or $30 MJmods (or anything else for that matter)... both will work
Filtration (nutrient and waste export): Skimmers, refuges, natural(live rock or Bioballs), DSB (deep sand bed), filter floss, water changes, etc
Supplements: you can buy they expensive name brand stuff or just use the following: baking soda, ms wages pickling lime, Calcium carbonate, and Magnesium sulfide/hydroxide (same ingredients, just much cheaper)
I myself tend to be a minimalist, it's the only way I can afford to be in the hobby... although I'd love the bells and whistles of all the fancy stuff out there, I'd never be able to keep up with the cost. It's all a personal choice
Last edited:
frankandmaura
New member
I too am a minimalist, and with a 13 month old that is all time affords 
But...that doesn't mean you can't have a nice "natural" looking tank. I say skim like heck and pray for the best...
One of my big fears is what happend last weekend in Albany - power outage...I am not prepared...
But...that doesn't mean you can't have a nice "natural" looking tank. I say skim like heck and pray for the best...
One of my big fears is what happend last weekend in Albany - power outage...I am not prepared...
Similar threads
