So I have just set up my new 210 and am very excited because I am now onto the nitrite part of the cycle. My question is regards to bio load on the tank. So I have a DSB with a good 3-4 inches in the tank itself. Then I have 300 IB Rock. In the fudge I have one tank with a DSB with cheto. And one 40 gallon tank with a plenum in there is a good 400 pounds. I know this will be good for the tank because I am trying to do a very natural tank. But how much will this really help with the bio load that will be able to keep without to much of an issue.
Bio-Load with DSB and plenum
- Thread starter Harth23
- Start date
DSB and plenum are so old school...you are taking me back about 10 or 15 years here. Most hobbyist do not implement plenums anymore. You have plenty of rock and sand to process all the nitrites and the DSB will lock down some of the nitrates. You should focus more on nutrient export. Chaeto can be a good nutrient exporter but you need a LOT of it. If you are trying to be all natural then grow as much chaeto as you possibly can. Make every available space in the sump and refugium a tumbling chaeto farm. Refugiums need to be quite large to have a real impact on water quality. It's estimated by some that refugiums need to be 1:1 ratio. Meaning for every 1 gallon of display tank you need 1 gallon of refugium. Many people will agree that refugiums have a small impact on the water quality and more or less are a place to breed pods and contain nuisance algae.
IMO if you aren't trying to hook up a skimmer, reactors, biopellets, carbon, gfo, UV, etc then your best bet is an algae turf scrubber. A well designed algae turf scrubber (ATS) would do more for the water quality of the tank than a DSB, plenum and refugium/chaeto farm combined. There have been numerous examples where an ATS has carried the entire nutrient export of very large systems enabling the hobbyist to never do water changes. An ATS would be a ton less work than harvesting all that chaeto and vacuuming all that sand. An ATS is also more efficient than chaeto and would take up less space. There are even examples of chaeto dying off completely after an ATS was implemented because the ATS was sucking up all the nutrients essentially starving the chaeto to death.
If you changed the system around it will alleviate a lot of work on your end and give you better results.
Just my $0.02.
IMO if you aren't trying to hook up a skimmer, reactors, biopellets, carbon, gfo, UV, etc then your best bet is an algae turf scrubber. A well designed algae turf scrubber (ATS) would do more for the water quality of the tank than a DSB, plenum and refugium/chaeto farm combined. There have been numerous examples where an ATS has carried the entire nutrient export of very large systems enabling the hobbyist to never do water changes. An ATS would be a ton less work than harvesting all that chaeto and vacuuming all that sand. An ATS is also more efficient than chaeto and would take up less space. There are even examples of chaeto dying off completely after an ATS was implemented because the ATS was sucking up all the nutrients essentially starving the chaeto to death.
If you changed the system around it will alleviate a lot of work on your end and give you better results.
Just my $0.02.
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Here is are 2 youtube videos of a reefer with a 220g tank. He removed every form of filtration he had (skimmers, gfo, biopellets, etc.) and implemented an ATS as his sole filtration. It's pretty amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAqCZlR_Un8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6kA3xDPaM - I've watched this video 10 times at least and I'm still amazed at the nutrient export he is getting.
If you want to learn more about ATS here is the link to the stick on this site. I've read almost the entire thread. People have some amazing results.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAqCZlR_Un8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6kA3xDPaM - I've watched this video 10 times at least and I'm still amazed at the nutrient export he is getting.
If you want to learn more about ATS here is the link to the stick on this site. I've read almost the entire thread. People have some amazing results.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420
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DSB and Jaubert Plenum work very well. While I have been in this hobby for only 40 years, I have seen little improvement over bacteria filtration. With respect to nutrient export, DSB and Jaubert Plenum will export nutrients. After nitrification bacteria convert amonnia to nitrite to nitrate, denitrification bacteria convert nitrate to free nitrogen gas. Nitrogen gas is exported from the water at the water/gas interface.
With respect to bio-load, no one can give you a cook book answer. With aggressive circulation, many fish can be maintained in our closed systems. On my 55G macro lagoon, I keep 3 medium tangs and well over 50 mollies that are now breeding in full strength marine. I feed heavily and just recently begin dosing amonia to maintain macro growth. The tank has has two HOB for external filtration and 1" of substrate. Because I like the natural look of macro in my marine tanks, I choose to use macro harvesting as my nutrient export mechanism.
With respect to bio-load, no one can give you a cook book answer. With aggressive circulation, many fish can be maintained in our closed systems. On my 55G macro lagoon, I keep 3 medium tangs and well over 50 mollies that are now breeding in full strength marine. I feed heavily and just recently begin dosing amonia to maintain macro growth. The tank has has two HOB for external filtration and 1" of substrate. Because I like the natural look of macro in my marine tanks, I choose to use macro harvesting as my nutrient export mechanism.
Hard to beat DSB and Plenum for nitrate export. Phosphate can be a problem - the fresh aragonite in a new tank will bind it until it gets full, and then it starts to rise and lead to what some think is a "leeching sand bed" or "old tank syndrome." Slowly replacing the sand after a few years can/will combat this by introducing new aragonite that is not all bound up with phosphate.
Yes, if you have enough of it and you actually export it. Most people don't have nearly enough and then they keep it in the tank and it starts to die when it gets depleted of some nutrient (like iron)... so it is oftentimes just a temporary store, or not enough. There are people with like 240-300 gallon tanks that use kiddie swimming pools to grow enough chaeto to keep P down.
The other issue is that the DSB&Pl will outcompete the macro for N, so it won't grow as fast to use up the P. DSB&Pl are rock solid to get N to zero... chaeto and macro is just one of many things to help with P, IMO and always works better in academia than in practice unless you have a TON of it and sometimes even dose some sodium nitrate and iron. A bad-azz skimmer, or two skimmers, is going to do way more, IMO.
Read up on Iron dosing for macroalgae... it will need it if you have any significant amount.
My typical tank has a DSB and lots of pacific live rock (porous and P free from the ocean). After 2-3 years, I put in new sand in about 20% of the tank every 3 to 6 months. ...then repeat. This gets the phosphate clogged sand out and allows more to bind to the clean sand.
BTW - I still know quite a few people who will set up new tanks with Plenum. They don't need anything and don't hang out online and argue about the newfangled methods, but you can bet that their tanks are awesome and have been for years and will be for years. Most all of my old-school friends replace sand and some even have extra live rock that the rotate in/out of the tank after cooking it to rid of the phosphate that binds there too. If I did not have coral all over my rocks, I would rotate them too.
The other issue is that the DSB&Pl will outcompete the macro for N, so it won't grow as fast to use up the P. DSB&Pl are rock solid to get N to zero... chaeto and macro is just one of many things to help with P, IMO and always works better in academia than in practice unless you have a TON of it and sometimes even dose some sodium nitrate and iron. A bad-azz skimmer, or two skimmers, is going to do way more, IMO.
Read up on Iron dosing for macroalgae... it will need it if you have any significant amount.
My typical tank has a DSB and lots of pacific live rock (porous and P free from the ocean). After 2-3 years, I put in new sand in about 20% of the tank every 3 to 6 months. ...then repeat. This gets the phosphate clogged sand out and allows more to bind to the clean sand.
BTW - I still know quite a few people who will set up new tanks with Plenum. They don't need anything and don't hang out online and argue about the newfangled methods, but you can bet that their tanks are awesome and have been for years and will be for years. Most all of my old-school friends replace sand and some even have extra live rock that the rotate in/out of the tank after cooking it to rid of the phosphate that binds there too. If I did not have coral all over my rocks, I would rotate them too.
Not that I'm a judge but I don't think DSB and Plenum's are old school. It is just another way to keep a reef tank. Hobby has been around a while and if you are using something and it is working for you - why change it? Or, if it is what you think would work - same.
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I don't give crap about old school or what is cool today. I judge effectiveness and I have used Deep Sand beds and algae scrubbers. With todays designs for algae scrubbers, there is no comparison with a DSB or macro Algae.
I breed fish and feed 4-5 times a day. It is a very high bio-load. My waterfall style ATS with LED lighting takes care of all of my export issues. I do run a skimmer occasionally.
I breed fish and feed 4-5 times a day. It is a very high bio-load. My waterfall style ATS with LED lighting takes care of all of my export issues. I do run a skimmer occasionally.
True statement, and this is the method I use. That and of course putting corals and fish that are from the same region or area. No more than what you feed them. Be that as it may people of all types either love the beds or hate them. I don't think I've ever saw a thread on any of the forums that come to a middle ground or understand.
People go bare bottom, reverse under gravel, substrate, deep beds, etc. Just because it works for one person doesn't mean it will for another. No different than lighting, feeding, etc. If there was a single recipe of success then I'd wager we'd see a lot less tank crashing threads. But we still see them.
Oh well, such as it is.
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