Biopellets causing Acropora to STN/RTN?

[Reefin' Dude]

You will notice, for example, that the phosphorus cycle diagrams that you posted don't include a large recycle component from ocean sediment back into the water column by bacteria.

nor from simple equalization. this is why i have a hard time believing that it equalizes as well as has been suggested. if it did, than we would see equal arrows going into and out of a substrate showing equalization. all we see are arrows going into the substrate.

G~

 

[dkeller_nc]

One explanation for that may be the form of phosphate that is being depicted. There are lots of compounds that contain phosphate, many of them as part of an organic molecule. In the ocean, a lot of organic material precipitates as "marine snow" before it has an opportunity to be broken down by bacteria or eaten by other organisms.

My speculation would be that since this marine snow is continuous, and the waters of the deep ocean are very cold and have much slower bacterial decomposition than surface/shallow waters, the phosphate in this marine snow is getting continuously buried and not recycled back into the water column. After a few eons, this material has been incorporated into rock, which eventually makes it onto the continents. This continental rock is weathered by action of rain/snow, so the phosphate is eventually returned to the ocean by this mechanism.

It'd be kind of hard to duplicate that process in a reef tank.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

the charts are showing a combination of both inorganic and organic, but primarily inorganic P directions. unfortunately for us we can only test for inorganic P. this is why we need to use biomarkers to tell us what the total P of a system actually is. the more biomass in the system, the more total P. biomass is organically bound P. the unfortunate part is that in order to have organically bound P in a given biomass there must be an enough food to support the biomass. if this is the food we add great, but if the biomass is feeding on waste products from other organisms, than this will also indicate a larger sink of P in the system.

actually it is quite easy to replicate in a reef tank. just siphon out the substrate on a regular basis, or replace the substrate completely as routine maintenance. we become plate tectonics.

G~

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All

Is there any evidence, that biopellets can cause STN/RTN? ...

There are many anecdotal reports of high alkalinity + biopellets being correlated to STN, but no "hard" evidence of a causal relationship.

I recently began running biopellets on my 210 that all inhabitants moved from my 150. Many of the acro colonies have grown from small frags to 4-8" colonies. I'm experiencing 50-75% of my acro's experiencing slow tissue necrosis.

The transfer of SPS specimens from systems in which they have long thrived to different systems often proves difficult.

Another odd scenario is that it tends to be centralized/affected on the right side of the tank.

This might indicate that the difficulties are arising from light and/or flow variables, as opposed to biopellets. If the source of the problem was biopellets one would expect that there would be no locational variable.


JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[dkeller_nc]

actually it is quite easy to replicate in a reef tank. just siphon out the substrate on a regular basis, or replace the substrate completely as routine maintenance. we become plate tectonics.

Actually, I was referring to duplicating subduction and the resultant earthquakes and volcanoes. Sounds much more interesting than phosphate management.

 

[lanshark]

Reef'in Dude, All this pontificating ........ Where is "the beef" ? As you have such a ABSOLUTE understanding of the topics being discussed, it is a shame you don't show us the real life application of your "book smarts"? Those that can, do... Those that can't, ?

 

[Reefin' Dude]

Actually, I was referring to duplicating subduction and the resultant earthquakes and volcanoes. Sounds much more interesting than phosphate management.

i know, though it would be fun to have that going on.

Reef'in Dude, All this pontificating ........ Where is "the beef" ? As you have such a ABSOLUTE understanding of the topics being discussed, it is a shame you don't show us the real life application of your "book smarts"? Those that can, do... Those that can't, ?

sorry, you are correct. i have posted my build thread a few times. here it is again. again, i have not had a chance to start up another tank after the divorce and getting the new house the way it needs to be before a largish (250g+) system can be added.

for another example from the person that got me started on doing all of the research on nutrients is Bomber.

spanky's starboard reef circa 11/2004

Pictures of Bomber's barebottom SPS tank and related equipment

if you haven't come across any Bomber/Spanky threads then it is worth anybody's time to find them. there are unfortunately not a lot of them left here on RC since the RC server crash back in 2005.

G~

 

[simonh]

I remember those threads well!

How's Bomber's tank these days?

Is he still active on any forums?

 

[Reefin' Dude]

i have not talked with him in a year. he is not on any forums anymore. after the big shakedown in the aquarium hobby industry he left the forums completely. that was in 2006. he took the tank down a few years later and stopped breeding clowns also a few years after that.

i had a ton of bookmarked threads from here, but the RC server crash seemed to have taken most of them out. if you have any saved, i would like to know if they work for you. luckily there are a lot of his threads elsewhere that i have links for.

G~

 

[GroktheCube]

Reef'in Dude, All this pontificating ........ Where is "the beef" ? As you have such a ABSOLUTE understanding of the topics being discussed, it is a shame you don't show us the real life application of your "book smarts"? Those that can, do... Those that can't, ?

There's no need for anyone to get so worked up. There's plenty of room for debate without personal insults!

Personally, if it weren't for the fact that I wanted sand dwelling critters like conches, I probably would have used a faux-sand bed (sand + epoxy) for my tank, as I think it would have made maintenance, nutrient management, and dead spot prevention easier. I'd still like to try a tank like that some day.

That said, I don't think having a sand bed in my tank will cause substantial problems. I keep dissolved nutrient levels low. Every month or so I heavily baste the rocks and stir the sand to remove any accumulated detritus, and run filter socks for a day or two to catch it. If a spot looks dirty, I'll vacuum it out and replace it with clean sand.

A lot of it comes down to what an individual wants out of their tank. However, if you don't care about critters that need sand to be happy, and only care about sand for aesthetics, I think that a faux sand bottom most likely makes for the overall easier experience from a maintenance perspective.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

+1

nobody is telling anybody they can not have sand in their tank. people are just pointing out what the sand is actually doing. it is up to the aquarist to decide where on the maintenance/cost curve they want to be on for the emulated environment they wish to keep in their systems. if you want to keep a softie tank or a tank that has an organisms that requires sand, then sand is absolutely the recommended way to go. if one wants to keep an true oligotrophic system, then keeping sand in the tank is going to require more maintenance/cost, than going with a BB system.

all that is being said is know the organisms that one wants to keep, then adapt the tank to the parameters needed to keep that organism. just because the organism cam from a warm salt water environment does not mean that it came from the same warm salt water environment of another organism. corals have adapted to very tight nutrient level niches. we must look at the nutrient levels that an organism needs as well as its temp, and S.G. levels and adapt the system to match.

a substrate does a lot, but it is not a magic worm hole to another dimension for nutrients. know what it does good and what it does bad, and use that knowledge to decide how you want to do maintenance.

G~

 

[Osteoclast]

As an aside: Boomer may be gone from RC but he is posting/answering queries on Manhattan Reefs in the chemistry section. He continues to provide good information to the readers and current topics are discussed from a leader (giant) in the hobby.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

As an aside: Boomer may be gone from RC but he is posting/answering queries on Manhattan Reefs in the chemistry section. He continues to provide good information to the readers and current topics are discussed from a leader (giant) in the hobby.

He is also the moderator in the chemistry forum on Reef Frontiers.

 

[simonh]

Boomer and Bomber/Spanky are two different people

 

[Osteoclast]

Simon,
Thanks I stand corrected. Bomber is/was a reef giant similar to Boomer with an expansive knowledge of the hobby, the science, and the methodology. His arguements were well constructed here at RC and on other forums RT among others. Any novice in reef keeping would do well to study his comments, posts, and writings. (Perhaps I was overwhelmed by Boomer's unforgettable avatar!)

 

[CW from the OC]

Anytime you go to a ultra low nutrient system,you run the risk of starving your SPS. That is why methods like Zeo are so careful once the nutrients get to low. You can't just pop in a ton of pellets and assume your SPS will be fine. Once you get to low nutrients, you need to kick up your feeding, a lot. Feed until your SPS grow, and/or you start getting nuisance algae. There is no auto pilot on an SPS system, at least,from what I've seen.

 

[chercm]

Anytime you go to a ultra low nutrient system,you run the risk of starving your SPS. That is why methods like Zeo are so careful once the nutrients get to low. You can't just pop in a ton of pellets and assume your SPS will be fine. Once you get to low nutrients, you need to kick up your feeding, a lot. Feed until your SPS grow, and/or you start getting nuisance algae. There is no auto pilot on an SPS system, at least,from what I've seen.

can i confirm i kept getting hair algae is it i did not feed enough ?

 

[SomeDude12]

anything used too much, will cause STN / RTN..

even if you fart by your skimmer too much, your corals will STN !

but farts are not a big STN factor.

Haha!