Bizarre RBTA activity. What happened?

[scolley]

I got my first anemone 6-8 weeks ago, and RBTA. Nice bulbous tips, striated red, about 2" wide when retracted, 6+ fully extended. Looked great (to me, an anemone newb.) Attached to a rock, came out in daytime. Readily took the very limited quantity of mysis I offered.

Then my scooter blenny disappeared. And so did the nem for a couple of weeks. When it reappeared from behind the tank's rear rock wall in fully red glory for about a week, then it went into active mode... moved every night for about 5-6 days. In the day (before lights came on) it would retreat. Then it disappeared. That was nearly 3 weeks ago. Now I find this in my sump (my DSB specifically).

I noticed it a couple of days ago. It's about 1" wide, much smaller than my missing RBTA. And I would swear it was smaller when I first noticed it. And there are some "chunks" of fleshy stuff near it, similar color and texture. When I first saw it, it was not inflated at all. I thought I had sponges growing. Now it's looking like an anemone having a bad day.

Anyone have any idea what's going on? Appears to be an anemone. But what? Is this my RBTA sucking major wind after a trip through my overflow and outflow tubing? IMO it was way too big for that.

Is it some kind of accidental propagation? Maybe it crawled into my Vortech, and chunks are still alive? Any and all feedback welcome. Thanks.

 

[garygb]

Yeah, that looks like your RBTA. Maybe you could put some live rock in the sump, add good lighting like a few PCs and try and rescue it. If not, perhaps find someone in your area that is experience keeping anemones and ask them if they will take it.

It very well could have gone into vortech. You don't want to put a BTA in a tank with uncovered powerheads. RBTAs can recover from being severely damaged, but it takes proper water conditions and proper light. I wouldn't put it back in the display tank. I personally would get it to attach to a hole in a piece of liverock and supply it with something like a 96 watt PC quad over the sump. If you can't do that, then the best bet is another hobbyist.

 

[scolley]

Wow. That is a bummer. Thanks for the help. So this is definitely not some propagated portion of the RBTA, not a split that got sucked into the overflow? I ask because this is a fraction of the volume of the original RBTA. Like a quarter of the size. Maybe less.

And without belaboring the limited space in my sump, it's gonna be difficult to fit that light in there. But i do have local friends - anemone keepers (but with uncovered vortechs FWIW) - that I could give it too. But it appears to be attached to the PVC. How to I coax it on to a rock? Rob it of light where it is, but set the rock and light up so that it's got to migrate to the rock to get light?

So, under the assumption that this is the RBTA (or some portion of it), would you further assume that those little pinkish chunks are more RBTA flesh?

Thanks for the help.

 

[scolley]

I shined a flashlight on that little thing, and it responded immediately, swelling up in some places, exposing tentacles in others. But the wild thing is... those tentacles are tiny. I'm mean 4 cm long, maybe 1 cm wide. But bubble shaped.

The "original" RBTA had tentacles 2.5-3 inches (60+ cm) long, and proportionately wider. So if this is THE original, it's original tentacles are gone and it's growing more. And it's got quite a few of these tiny ones. It appears to have about as many of these as the original had. Seems odd that a chunk could regrow so many in such a short period of time. Or many this really is the "original". But if so, the reduction in tentacle size is bizarre.

 

[scolley]

I just checked something else that's relevant here, the path to my sump. I use a Hoffer Gurgle Buster in my outer overflow box. There's no way to the sump without going through that, short of crawling down the return pipes - which lead straight to my return pump. So it seems fair to say anything traveling from my DT to the sump either did it on a piece of rock moving from DT to sump (none in many months), or through the Gurgle Buster.

I just measured the gap that the water flow through on the Gurgle Buster. The gap is a shade more than 1/16" of an inch wide. Nowhere near 1/8". That said, this MUST be a recovering chunk of the RBTA, or some other split off it. For it seems really tough to imagine that my big (relatively speaking) anemone could have fit through that tiny opening. Could it?

If it can't (don't see how), the natural assumption would be that this is something that split off the original, some way or another. And if this IS the result of a Vortech event, shouldn't I expect to see other chunks of anemone in my little 29g tank? The rest of it (most of it) had to go somewhere. My nitrates are 0.5 PPM, with VERY little algae (to suck up nitrates). And my skimmer is a whimpy little Eheim 9002. IMO a big dying anemone should be fouling up my tank. And since it disappeared, I've only changed maybe 20% of the tank's water.

So if there were large portions of dead anemone my tank, it should have presented itself in a nitrate spike, or and algae growth spike. In the absence of that, I'm wondering where the rest of the RBTA went.

 

[2Addicted]

Yes thats your rbta. I have seen large ones go through egg crate so they can fit through small spaces. The red and white stuff laying on the sand looks like more of the anemone. It got chopped up in something.

 

[scolley]

Yes thats your rbta. I have seen large ones go through egg crate so they can fit through small spaces. The red and white stuff laying on the sand looks like more of the anemone. It got chopped up in something.

2Addicted, I appreciate the feedback. Thank you. And please don't think I'm being argumentative, I'm still trying to deduce what really happened. So, eggcrate is what? 1/4" by 1/4"? That's way bigger than a 1/16th inch slit. But let's presume it's possible still...

The red and white stuff laying on the sand looks like more of the anemone. It got chopped up in something.

If the red and white stuff is more anemone (looks like it to me too), that would imply - as you say - that it got copped up. Sounds like the Vortech.

If so, passing through the Gurgle Buster becomes more plausible, because it could have been a big chunk of the anenome and not the whole thing. I can tell you with complete certainty, what is in my sump is nowhere near the size of the original. Not remotely close.

And since it survived (so far), and since I don't appear to have rotting anemone in my tank, the rest of the original RBTA may be off nursing it's wounds somewhere behind a rock. So...

I'll put a filter over the Vortech ('cuz I susptect the rest of the RBTA is still in there).

And how do I get this little guy off the PVC, and onto a rock so I can get it to an anemone keeper?

Thanks.

 

[bradleym]

FWIW, anemones deprived of light and food will starve, and when starving will eat their tentacles from the inside, resulting in all their tentacles turning into little nubs over time. They also shrink as they starve, both of which would explain the size and shape of yours. After it finally starved itself for 3 weeks it likely took a walk into a vortech, and voila, small, beaten RBTA. Also, they are mostly water so the size they appear is deceiving. I've seen mine get flat and thin like a waffle then go back to normal in a few hours. So fitting in small holes is easier than it seems.

 

[bradleym]

And pointing a powerhead at the nem's base will get him moving in short order. Good luck!

 

[scolley]

FWIW, anemones deprived of light and food will starve, and when starving will eat their tentacles from the inside, resulting in all their tentacles turning into little nubs over time. They also shrink as they starve, both of which would explain the size and shape of yours. After it finally starved itself for 3 weeks it likely took a walk into a vortech, and voila, small, beaten RBTA. Also, they are mostly water so the size they appear is deceiving. I've seen mine get flat and thin like a waffle then go back to normal in a few hours. So fitting in small holes is easier than it seems.

Got it. Thank you.

That also explains why... no matter how tiny this thing is, it has approximately the same number of tentacles as the "original".

And pointing a powerhead at the nem's base will get him moving in short order. Good luck!

You've got no idea how small this sump is. Maybe I should call it a "nano sump", which is it. But I think I could get some flexible tubing from a micro pump to point at it, and get it to move.

Thank you for the help in suggesting a way that I can get it out, without doing further harm.

So, in the interest of learning, and documenting for the community, where I screwed up...

It sounds like I should have had the foam sleeve around my Vortech. Right?

And as to its wandering, did the activity in my original post sound like "normal" activity? I know incessant movement means something is wrong. But what I found curious, was that after the alleged blenny eating and subsequent post-digestion movement phase, it would move at night, find a nice place, and hang (generally upside down) with tentacles semi-extended. And then, after the PC actinics came on in the morning, but before the MH came up, would pack up and retreat behind the rock work to emerge again the next evening.

My assumption is that if the near the bottom flow (where the nem was) was too high, it would not find a nice spot each night and then stay all night... that it would keep moving, which it did not. I'm confused by the fact that it would move again as the lights were coming up... as if it were retreating from the light. But I KNOW it was not overcome by the MH lights because it would consistently be gone before those would even come one. Weird. Please keep in mind, all this behavior mentioned above was AFTER a couple of weeks being in one place, new to the tank, coming out in daylight, retreating at nite. This "normal" behavior seems to have changed after it ate my scooter (not proven, just suspected), retreated to digest for a couple of weeks, and then came out ready to spend a lot of energy looking for a new home.

Shared insights on this are most welcome.

That said, I'll try to get some water pointed at it, and a rock to move to. And will begin to line up a new home.

Thanks!

 

[bradleym]

Well that sounds like NOT normal behavior. I can't say why it happened but it wasn't happy after it went behind the rocks. A wandering BTA will not hide away from the light for more than a day or 2 when healthy.

The foam insert is always recommended but especially if the BTA won't stay put. If the BTA did try to eat the blenny, it may have been cut or infected as a result which could have caused the "abnormal activity".

 

[garygb]

You can gently slide a credit card between the anemone's base and the pvc to loosen it. Is the return pump in the sump protected so the anemone can't get sucked into the intake? You can also place a PC fixture along the outside glass to provide light. It doesn't absolutely have to be above the anemone. It's base is intact, therefore, with the proper care you should be able to bring the anemone back. Imperative, no more pumps to suck it in and proper lighting and water conditions. On the topic, what are your water parameters?

 

[scolley]

If the BTA did try to eat the blenny, it may have been cut or infected as a result which could have caused the "abnormal activity".

Hmmm... sounds plausible, but the fact is, I can't say for sure. The blenney was a relatively new addition to my tank. Had been around for a couple of months. When I first got the RBTA, it immediately went into hiding for a few days. But then it came every day - same spot - 4 or 5 hours after lights came on, and stayed out the rest of the photoperiod, and kept that up a week or so. Then it disappeared for a couple of weeks, and I notice the Blenny was gone too. I can't prove they are linked. But if not, it is a coincidence.

You can gently slide a credit card between the anemone's base and the pvc to loosen it. Is the return pump in the sump protected so the anemone can't get sucked into the intake? You can also place a PC fixture along the outside glass to provide light. It doesn't absolutely have to be above the anemone. It's base is intact, therefore, with the proper care you should be able to bring the anemone back.

Thanks. I might try that. Gently...

On the topic, what are your water parameters?

Good question. This is all as of this past weekend.

pH - 8.35
SG - 1.0255
Temp - 80.7
Alk - 9.25 dKH
Ca - 390 ppm
Mg - 1275
Nitrate - 0.5 ppm
Phosphate - undetectable

But until 2 weeks ago, my Alk was 7.75. I had a small acro issue, so I let it creep up slowly to its present level. But the anemone had already gone into hiding (post walking around the tank phase) at that time.

My tank is about 18 months old now. Is quite fully stocked as a healthy mixed reef. The water parameters are fairly stable for a nano, because I have an ATO, do very small water changes each day (adds up to 25-30% a month), and pump in small quantities of 2-part throughout each day. And between fans on the sump, and a tiny piezoelectric chiller, temperature swings way less than 1/2 degree each day. About the only thing that swings is Mg, that I dose each weekend. Oh... and pH swings a bit each evening. Goes without saying I guess.

For flow I've got a return pump blowing 250+ gph and a Vortech MP10 normally running at 100% Reef Crest mode. When the nem was wandering, I cut it back to 50% for a couple of days to see if that would affect the behavior. It did not. And down at the bottom of the tank where the nem was, there IS flow, more than I would call "gentle". But all my LPS thrive in it, but I don't think it's enough for SPS. My returns are at the top of the tank. And the MP10 is mounted somewhat high up. That's to keep the high flow at the top of the tank.

As for light, I've got a 150w MH situated 4" above 17" of water. That is augmented by 2 65w PC actinics, though one of the two shines as much down the back of the tank as in it. The PAR in the RBTA's original location near the bottom was 160, but after it moved it went to a spot half way up the rock work, right under the MH. That was closer to 360. But it never fully extended in that spot, so it may have been a bit bright there.

Probably more info than you were looking for. But I'm anxious to learn... and don't want to hold back relevant info. And if I messed up somewhere (other than the lack of foam covering), it's just as well to get it out there so that others can learn from it too.

So... what's the verdict on my parameters?

 

[garygb]

Parameters look good for your anemone to recover.

Not sure if your display tank is large enough for a small "hospital tank" within the confines, something like a big version of a guppy breeder cage. That would take care of the anemones need for light, however, you would want to make sure the anemone gets some water flow and it would need a piece of liverock with a cave to attach. I'd still be inclined to let it stay in the sump (assuming it can't get sucked into another water pump) and put a piece of liverock and rig up a PC until it recovers. Then the anemone and rock could be returned to the display tank. Since it's attached so well to the PVC, I'm confident that it would attach to a piece of liverock with the requisite hole/cave. I think if a BTA could have the perfect attachment site it would be a hole several inches into a piece of liverock, just about the size of their column that runs approximately parallel with the ground. the hole would not extend all the way through the rock, i.e, the foot could attach to the end of the tunnel.

 

[scolley]

Thanks garyrb. On one hand, it's nice to know it looks like I was set up correctly. I though I had done my homework. But I definitely should have used that foam.

I like the "hospital" idea within the tank. But I'm not sure it's going to matter. That RBTA is looking worse. Much worse. And there's more of the pink/white stuff on top of the DSP. At first I assumed it was multiple chunks from a Vortech episode. Now I'm not so sure...

The anemone looks like it's disintegrating. IMO those chunks are stuff that's come off the anemone. The DSB is a low flow area, so I think those are just falling off the anemone.

Which means, this thing may not have gone through my Vortech at all. It could have spent the last three weeks traveling through my outflow, and landed in a starved, stressed condition in the DSB.

I hate seeing the thing die like that. And I'd almost rather believe it went through the Vortech (though I'm not so sure now). That way I'd know what to fix before trying it again. Now I don't know what was really wrong...

 

[scolley]

Now that said... there was one thing I observed that seemed odd. I've got a brown serpent star in the tank, about a foot wide, body the size of a quarter. Before I got the RBTA I looked here to see if I could see any cautions around that, and could not.

When I first put the anemone in the tank, I walked away for maybe two minutes. When I returned it was gone! I was shocked. It was at night, so I grabbed a flashlight, and saw it in the rocks a few inches away, with the serpent star all over it. It looked like it was trying to eat it. I thought that rather odd, and wondered if the anemone might have some dying/injured flesh on it to cause that reaction.

From what I could tell, the star remained that way for about two days, left, and then the anemone came out. As mentioned, it came out every day for about a week. But as soon as it retreated to the rock at night, a flashlight inspection would always reveal the starfish on it.

Could that somehow, have been related to the problem?

 

[bradleym]

WOW! Oh wow. Idk what that means but that CAN'T be good. I do know that nothing sitting on anemone like that is helping it.

 

[garygb]

I would think your brittle star was attracted to some dying flesh too. Sometimes if the damage is too severe an RBTA won't recover. Maybe more pics, if possible. If it appears to be disintegrating, then you will want to remove it quickly. If like you suspect, those chunks weren't from a vortech incident, but are instead the anemone falling apart, then the chance of saving it are low, at best.

 

[scolley]

WOW! Oh wow. Idk what that means but that CAN'T be good. I do know that nothing sitting on anemone like that is helping it.

Yeah... that's what I figured too. Initially. But then when I was unable to find anything here on other people having similar experiences, I thought... maybe it's "normal", so common no one even mentions it anymore. Apparently not.

I would think your brittle star was attracted to some dying flesh too. Sometimes if the damage is too severe an RBTA won't recover. Maybe more pics, if possible. If it appears to be disintegrating, then you will want to remove it quickly. If like you suspect, those chunks weren't from a vortech incident, but are instead the anemone falling apart, then the chance of saving it are low, at best.

Here's some pics. You tell me if it's falling apart. Maybe I'm wrong. Certainly won't be the first time on this thread.

I couldn't get a good pic of the anemone. But it's looking worse. No tentacles to be seen. I suppose the big question is if there is more flesh on the sand bed than yesterday.

Oh... I assume I should be getting that flesh on the sand bed out. Should have thought about that before.

 

[garygb]

Yeah, was just thinking you need to get the tissue off the sand. Still a question mark for me whether the anemone could be saved. They really can be mangled and come back sometimes.