Bizarre RBTA activity. What happened?

[scolley]

I'll remove the tissue. And leave the nem for now. I was inclined to scrape it off yesterday, but to my amazement, this morning it looked much better. Not terribly dissimilar to the first pics.

My fuge is on an inverse light cycle. The DSB the nem is on is in that fuge. When I took the first pics, it was right after the fuge light being on all nite. Yesterday's pic was after it being off all day. That must have made the difference.

I'm gonna have to back track on the Vortech though. Looking at its tissue last night, it had some edges stuck to the pipe, that looked like they had been sliced with a knife. A little like the nem was a 3/4" disk of 1/8" thick Play-doh, and someone had taken a knife and sliced off a chunk of it. Really looked like a knife cut. So I'm throwing my vote back to the Vorteck.

It's conceivable that if there are more chunks of the anenome stuck in the plumbing, I'm seeing more in the DSB as it disintegrates, comes loose, and winds up in the DSB.

I'll watch the nem for a day or two (mornings only) and see it appears stable. If so, we'll initiate plans to move/save it.

So I'm I correct in thinking that I had a suitable environment for a RBTA, but that some was not right... causing all the nocturnal traveling? And if so, what might that have been? Injury upon arrival (serpent star behavior as evidence)? A bizarre starfish that attacks nems (healthy or not)? Or some other problem (flow, light, water chemistry)?

Thanks again for all the help.



PS - It IS exactly as I've read on this forum... these dying anemone chunks smell putrid! Really nasty stuff.

 

[RcToners]

Hello,

My thoughts are,

I can only assume your nem was unhappy hence all the moving. I have owned quite a few BTA's and when they move it means something is wrong. I had a nem move on me for about a week until I picked it up and placed it right over a large whole on one of my rocks, since then that nem never moved and just about doubled in size over night. It sounds like your nem may have been starving and pretty much started to eat itself. I dont know if the top of your over flows are covered but nems can and will come up and over and over flow pretty easy. Judging by your images it looks like your nem was chopped up so I assume it took a trip into the powerheads, down to your sump and the rest is history. I would suggest like others that you remove all the small chuncks of the the nem that appear to be rotting in your sump. You can place a small bag with some ice in it right on the foot of the nem and it will move asap. you can try to put it back into your main display but from the images it appears to be a gonner.

 

[garygb]

Yes, I suspect that the reason it was moving in your display is because it didn't find a rock with a hole in it that satisfied its need.

I don't think you mentioned before that you have light on your sump. If you have light on the sump, perhaps the RBTA is getting sufficient light and you don't need additional sources. You may be fine with providing the anemone with a proper piece of liverock and keeping it right in the chamber where it's located.

If it detaches, is there any chance it will get caught up in another pump in the sump? Your vortech has done enough, another mishap like that and I doubt it will have any chance.

 

[scolley]

I can only assume your nem was unhappy hence all the moving. I have owned quite a few BTA's and when they move it means something is wrong. I had a nem move on me for about a week until I picked it up and placed it right over a large whole on one of my rocks, since then that nem never moved and just about doubled in size over night.

Yup. I knew it was unhappy. What I've been unclear about is the "why". Could be the hole - as you mention. None of the rocks that it explored had both holes, and easy access to sufficient light.

I was providing it overhangs... that it used a few times. But only for a little while. I thought they had a preference for hanging upside down, just in the shade, where they can expand downward and poke out. Providing holes is easy. Thanks for the tip.

I would suggest like others that you remove all the small chuncks of the the nem that appear to be rotting in your sump. You can place a small bag with some ice in it right on the foot of the nem and it will move asap.

Those nasty, stinky, putrid chunks are gone. Had to use a turkey baster to suck them up. Touching them created too much of a mess in the water.

The bag of ice sounds clever. I'll try that if a gentle current won't work. Thanks!

Yes, I suspect that the reason it was moving in your display is because it didn't find a rock with a hole in it that satisfied its need.

That's an easy problem to fix. I'll line one up next to the PVC. Thanks.

I don't think you mentioned before that you have light on your sump. If you have light on the sump, perhaps the RBTA is getting sufficient light and you don't need additional sources. You may be fine with providing the anemone with a proper piece of liverock and keeping it right in the chamber where it's located.

There are a couple of tiny fluorescent lights, and a little halogen. It's just barely enough light to get Chaeto to grow. Just barely. I assumed an anemone would need more. However, I've been looking to upgrade those lights anyway, and this could be the perfect excuse.

Maybe a rock with a hole, a little more light, and peace and quiet is what it needs to recuperate. If that's possible at this juncture.

If it detaches, is there any chance it will get caught up in another pump in the sump? Your vortech has done enough, another mishap like that and I doubt it will have any chance.

I'd like to think there's no chance of that... say's the same guy that thought there's no way the original anemone could fit in his Gurgle Buster.

The portion of the sump the RBTA is in - the DSB - is very, very low flow, nothing in it but sand. The DSB flows into the Fuge/Macro Algae chamber though. That's got a little micro pump for circulation - tiny thing, a few gph, but has a grill over the inflow. However, the trickle of water leaving the DSB is so low flow, going between some pretty high acrylic teeth, that I have a hard time imagining that little critter getting into that fuge chamber.

After that it could go to the return chamber. But the Fuge feeds the return through a bunch of tiny hole. That 'nem would have to be Houdini to get from the Fuge to the return.


Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[garygb]

Good to hear it can't get to another pump. Low flow like you describe is ok at this point. And if the light you have is barely enough for chaeto, then it's definitely not enough for your anemone. So an upgrade in light, providing it with a good rock, and continued good water quality is about all you can do at this point. Since the foot is intact, despite a nasty run-in with the vortech, I still think this anemone has a real chance.

 

[scolley]

Thanks garygb - though a newb to anemones, and somewhat to reefs, I'm no stranger to good aquarium husbandry, and I find it disturbing every time my care (or lack thereof) is responsible for a death. As hobbyists, it is an inevitable fact of our pursuit. Though many if us - myself included - do honestly try hard to avoid it. So while I feel aweful for the suffering this animal has gone thru in my care, I am encouraged to know that a recovery - and possibly a happy existance - is possible over time.

So, since the appropriate light level is the question du jour, any guidance to what that should be for an injured animal? Since I'll be changing the lighting in the sump anything is (theoretically) possible. I've got a problem with vertical space fou mounting, but with good guidance on the appropriate level of light, that just becomes a problem for me to figure out.

So, how much light? Replying with both light info (like, "65watt PC") and environmental variables (like, "12 inches away from the nem, cutting thru 9 inches of water") would allow me to do the math to give this little puppy exactly the light it needs.

Thanks in advance.

 

[garygb]

Something like this would do the trick, and your chaeto would love it too:

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13734

You could order just a 6700K or a 10000K quad and get even more PAR. The fixture could be laid along the glass outside the sump or placed above the sump. If the anemone is within say 12-15 inches, you should be fine. You can research other fixtures, such as t-5. You would want individual reflectors and 4 bulbs.

Frankly, BTAs are more forgiving when it comes to light intensity compared with some of the other host species. They are found down to depths of well over 100 feet in the wild, the light's not too intense down there.

 

[scolley]

Cool. Thanks. That's just the info I needed. I'll never be able to fit that in my stand... but 96w PC at 12-15 inches tells me what I needed to know. I can translate that to something appropriate in my limited space.

That is... if it's going to matter. That anemone is much smaller this morning. Does NOT look as good this morning as it did yesterday. I think what's needed is patience, and a little more light in the short term.

Thanks.

PS - no more chunks of flesh though. That's a good indicator anyway.

 

[garygb]

Yeah, no chunks of flesh is definitely a good thing. 65 watts of PC within a foot and you should be ok. I would even say if it's directly under a 2 bulb individual reflector t-5 fixture with 2 good quality bulbs (read on the t-5 thread in the Equipment and filtration Forum for pointers) and only 8 inches away or so it would be ok. Some of the t-5 fixtures are very slim.

 

[scolley]

The little injured nem was in a mood to move yesterday. Again. So I got a bit of dry rock with a 3/4" wide by 3/4" deep indentation on it. The nem was practically detached from the pvc, in the process of moving, so gently prying it from the PVC with a credit card was cake. I then placed in over the hole, and it hunkered down into it within minutes. This morning it's still there, just looks like it's more "settled", fitting in it nicely.

Did not move if from the DSP. It's got gentle water flow there, and no critters to bother it. There's just the issue with the light...

Fixtures just aren't going into that space easily. There's only a few inches of vertical clearance over the sump. So nothing get's mounted without removing the entire sump out, mounting, then putting it back - quite a few hours work. So it's not happening in the short term.

However, I do have a Edison screw base 27W, "full spectrum" 5500K CF bulb and socket. It's supposed to put out the light of a 100w household bulb. To plug it it, it sure looks like it. I was able to wedge that in temporarily, at about 8 inches from the nem. It immediately began retreating. So fearing too much light, I backed it up another 4 inches and the nem settled down, and was in that same spot in the morning.

So I'll keep this up a few days, and see how it goes.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[JByer323]

If space is at a super premium in your fuge, which it seems to be, perhaps one of the small LED fixtures would do the trick? Something like this?

I just wanted to mention how much I appreciate the detail in which you document everything, Steve. Between your posts here and at The Planted Tank, I've learned quite a bit from you.

 

[garygb]

Hopefully the indentation on the rock is deep enough. Since it's small, it very well may be. Definitely keep up with the 27 watt PC. 5500k is actually very good light as far as the zooxanthellae are concerned. If I were you and so limited on space, I would put that 27 watt on a timer for 10-12 hours per day and leave it. In time you can add the anemone back to the tank, but for now it needs to be in intensive care.

 

[scolley]

If space is at a super premium in your fuge, which it seems to be, perhaps one of the small LED fixtures would do the trick? Something like this?

I just wanted to mention how much I appreciate the detail in which you document everything, Steve. Between your posts here and at The Planted Tank, I've learned quite a bit from you.

Hey! Thanks for the kind words JByer323! If you are an active member of PT, then you know that I'm barely known here at RC. However, I DO REALLY appreciate your kind words. This is kind of OT, but since this is my thread... I'm going to digress a moment.

We are ALL in this together. We try. We succeed. And we screw up. The successes of hobbyist's are very well documented in RC, PT, and other forums. Not surprisingly, the failures are routinely glossed over, lied about, or - at best - just not mentioned. THAT is a crying shame.

We ALL have so much to learn, that posting successes AND failures is essential to our learning process. My thread here - unfortunately - is an example of the later. If you are interested in evidence of the former, pls send me a PM, and I'll invite you to see some tanks that are (at the very least) great examples of what the dedicated hobbyist can achieve.

That said, when we seek to honestly share our observations - in the interest of spreading knowledge/experience - we diminish the thrill of the problem. But this is essential IMO. Huh? This thread is a perfect example...

I had a nem with a bad problem. The end results were clearly bad. And I could have left the conversation focused on the likely Vortech induced injuryies it sustained. Or I could have focused on my lovely water parameters (implying that the problem was NOT my husbandry). But introducing the wacky serpent star problem was not only pulling in something from left field, it was also an essential potentially significant fact that needed to be shared.

Did it matter? Who knows.

Does it show that I didn't do all the research I needed before I took the BRTA plunge? Maybe.

Is is a significant data point that the community can learn from, if I'm willing to be honest about my possible mistakes and share them? WITHOUT A DOUBT.

So thanks for the kind words Byer323! We are all learning from each other. Hopefully.

Hopefully the indentation on the rock is deep enough. Since it's small, it very well may be. Definitely keep up with the 27 watt PC. 5500k is actually very good light as far as the zooxanthellae are concerned. If I were you and so limited on space, I would put that 27 watt on a timer for 10-12 hours per day and leave it. In time you can add the anemone back to the tank, but for now it needs to be in intensive care.

I've got an AC Jr, being upgraded to an AC Apex, so the timer is no problem. Thanks.

For now, the nem seems to have inverted itself. Still in the hole, but with the less-injured side (the foot?) down. In an odd way, this could be a good sign. It's definitely not leaving that hole. It's hunkered down.So for now... we'll just watch and wait.

 

[scolley]

Well... the RBTA is dead. It was so completely hunkered down in it's hole - not poking out at all, that I was able to remove the rock, place it in a bucket of tank water, and hit it with a stream of water with a turkey baster. The result was putrid.

So... I feel bad for the nem. Shoulda had a foam cover on my Vortech. HOWEVER, it got into the Vortech because it was wandering far and wide. Once it started moving, it was moving every night. So something was wrong. The water conditions were apparently good - baring bad reading due to bad test kits/instrumentation - and it had a broad range of light to chose from. Then there was the whole serpent star weirdness. In the possibility of injury from eating a blenny. Any other ideas what was wrong?

I'm concerned that I thought I had good conditions before I started, but something was amiss.

Thanks.

 

[garygb]

Sorry to hear that. You gave it your best shot. My guess is that it wandered around looking for just the right place to attach. sometimes it takes a while to find the right cave or overhang that fits the bill.

 

[sirbiggstixx]

sorry to hear man..my nem moved and floated around for a few weeks before it got comfy..good luck on everything in the future

 

[scolley]

Thanks for the help folks. I guess there is another possibility that I had not considered... that RBTAs are just really picky about their spot. I'm a relatively new reefer, and I feel good about the fact that in a small tank, I've been able to create varied enough light and flow that a pretty wide range of corals are happy. From high light, high flow requiring to medium light, medium flow tolerant corals. I figured that plus suitable attack to - in the right water conditions - was good enough to satisfy an RBTA. But there is one thing that was lacking... Lots of room to wander.

I should post a FTS, as my nano is practically FULL. Granted, up close you can see there are are a good number of choices, but getting to them can take a lot of trial and error in moving,'because the vast majority of surfaces are covered in coral.

So while there were - in fact - a wide range of light/flow choices of places to attach... my tank may not have provided enough choices.

That's my speculation anyway.

Many thanks to everyone for their support.

PS - Have already gotten a lovely Rock Flower, and IMO it looks "happy as a clam".

 

[garygb]

Epicystis crucifer make very nice tank additions. I have 7 of them and I love them. They tend to find a place in a crevice or under a rock and stay there. They also grow to a nice, but manageable size, maybe 7-8 inches across. They come in a wide variety of colors and several in a group together makes a nice display. I'm sure it will do fine for you. FYI, another species that tends to stay in one place, stays relatively small, is hardy and comes in a wide range of interesting colors are the maxi-mini (Stichodactyla tapetum) anemones. You might want to give one of those a try sometime.

 

[scolley]

Thanks for the recommendations. I've been doing my homework, and was seriously thinking about a maxi-mini also! Though honestly, I'm going to see how this Rock Flower (E. crucifer) does first. I want to see it settle for a few months first... and make sure it finds a pseudo-permanent home. Like I said, I've only got so much room.

Thanks!

 

[scolley]

Thought it made sense to post a follow-up...

The rock-flower I mentioned in my prior post has done wonderfully. It has remained exactly where I put it 6-8 weeks ago. I feed it a silver side piece once every couple of weeks. Seems happy as a clam, if I can use the wrong metaphor. ;-)

So with things going so well I decided to go for some maxi-minis. There's some areas on the other side of the tank from the rock-flower that seemed appropriate. So I went for it.

Fortunately the LFS owner told me to hold the nem over a hole in a rock for several minutes, to give it a chance to extend it's foot.

For anyone that has followed this thread, you will recall that my now deceased RBTA was "attacked" by my serpent star when I put it in the tank. Nothing happened with the rock -flower. But guess what on the first maxi-mini I put in the tank?

The moment I pulled my hand out of the tank... POW! That star had two or three tentacles on that nem and was pulling it into the dark recesses of the tank!

Luckily I was there, watching, and ready to intervene.

I got the nem free, and successfully attached to a rock where it has been for a week. But given that this is the second nem that I've had that was "attacked" by the serpent star, immediately upon placing it in the tank, I'm certain this is no coincidence. Having watched the star anemone further, what I'm not sure of is that it was actually an attack.

A couple of days ago I decided to give the maxi-mini its first meal in its new home. When I placed a piece of silver side on it... BAM! Tentacles of the serpent star were all over it!

Some tentacles zoomed in on the silver side. But others were clearly misplaced and trying to retract. But the nem being so sticky, this had the effect of pulling parts of the star off the rock to which it was attached. Eventually the maxi-mini won.

But now having seen the star's difficultly to let go of the nem... I'm willing to make some conjectures about its "attacks" of some of my new nems.

I'll wager the star was attracted by the scent of injured tissue on the RBTA and one maxi-mini as they were introduced to the tank. The injured tissue being due to the trauma of transport, of course. But when the star extended some tentacles for what was apparently food, those tentacles became stuck. And when the tentacles were withdrawn, because the nem was just introduced to the tank and not yet well attached, it was pulled by the serpent star to the recesses of the tank. Not because the star was attacking... but rather because it was unable to let go.

Thoughts? Anyone else seen this?