Bow big does your Refugium have to be?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12309168#post12309168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by meschaefer
ARGH... I sit at work and type out responses in between phone calls and interruptions. I typed out a fairly detailed response on exactly how I was running my fuge then obviously didn't hit reply.

I am not flamming anyone, I disagree with a proposition and gave a reasoned explanation why.

No where have I said that I am anti-refugium. I take issue only with the idea that a small refugium is better than no refugium.

My refugium was lit by the lamp recommended by Melev. I played with the flow over the year it was set up, and it varied from a slow turn over to a very rapid turnover as I experimented with it. Water flow was directed so that it caused the Cheato to tumble in a ball, exposing all sides to the light. It was harvested slightly less than once every two weeks, sometimes once a week. I had a small amount of live rock rubble on the bottom, no sand. Ocassionaly I dosed iron, but not often.

Matt, not wanting to believe a guy because of his stated experience may not be flamming but it is a little condescending, and I know you didn't mean it that way, but the poster did.

As far as your views-- I incorage you to elaborate on them and would love to discuss them with you---I just don't like think this is the thread to do it on--since you and I didn't originally start it
Also there are some good fuge setups and some good points made there that would interest you. I started the thread with the intention that it would show a wide spectrum of ideas--so your views would be respected there

I really wish you would elaborate on the thread I linked to my above post and possible this one to--its got Randy Holmes-Farley's view on the use of fuges for nitrate reduction---I think you would enjoy participating on that thread too

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1347461

 

[CaptainCoral]

Howdy folks.

How big does a refugium have to be for nutrient export?
I will maintain that it only needs to be big enough to grow and harvest algae. If you can pluck some out, it's working to that measured degree regardless of size (or where it's growing for that matter).

I feel that a person should ask how much of the load does it need to carry. As to actual size of the fuge, I'd like to point out that footprint shouldn't be forgotten. For example, a Rubbermaid 50G stock tank has more potential than a 55G all glass tank.

I feel that using algae for nutrient export isn't for the impatient. You need to be willing to make it work and be willing to wait to get it kicked in. I have three systems and all of them with refugiums and algae. I have two that I have been waiting over a year to really take off and one I can barely keep up with the removal.

I personally believe that refugiums are what they have always been. A place of refuge for anything. If you want a DSB, but not in the display, it's a great safe spot. Do you want to keep the algae in your display at bay, grow it somewhere else. Do you want to sustain more natural food sources than the display can maintain?
These are the same themes I remember from long ago and I feel nothing has been perverted.

 

[meschaefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12309969#post12309969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Matt, not wanting to believe a guy because of his stated experience may not be flamming but it is a little condescending, and I know you didn't mean it that way, but the poster did.

As far as your views-- I incorage you to elaborate on them and would love to discuss them with you---I just don't like think this is the thread to do it on--since you and I didn't originally start it
Also there are some good fuge setups and some good points made there that would interest you. I started the thread with the intention that it would show a wide spectrum of ideas--so your views would be respected there

I really wish you would elaborate on the thread I linked to my above post and possible this one to--its got Randy Holmes-Farley's view on the use of fuges for nitrate reduction---I think you would enjoy participating on that thread too

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1347461

It wasn't meant as an attack on his experience, but rather an observation that the tank he was referencing was fairly young. For all I know he may have been at this for many many years.

I started reading through your thread... and will post soon.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12311843#post12311843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by meschaefer
It wasn't meant as an attack on his experience, but rather an observation that the tank he was referencing was fairly young. For all I know he may have been at this for many many years.

I started reading through your thread... and will post soon.

thanks Matt--looking forward to it

BTW---I was only posting as a heads up to the way your post was being interpreted by the other poster--I understand what your intent was.

 

[cashman95]

IMO......If done right, a fuge with algea growing to absorb nutrients can be effective, but it needs to have filtered water(skimmer), and proper flow, otherwise it can be a nutrient sink. A DSB in a slow flowing algea absorbing fuge is a problem waiting to happen. It has been stated by many experts(calfo,etc.) that a fuge even if done right can be more of a problem than a help. (Releasing toxins, trapping detrius, dieing off and releasing nutrients back into the water, etc.) AND MOST ALL EXPERTS state: that if you are going to have one, it needs to be big in order to be helpful.

With that said...IMO fuges are suppose to be a place where pods and etc. can take refuge from predators while suppling your tank with live food. The algea in fuges was only incorporated as a food source for the pods and not for absorbing nutrients.

Will I have an algea scrubbing fuge........NOT A CHANCE! Keep it simple is my motto!!!! Just look at many of the TOTM's and see if they are running any kind of algea scrubbing fuge......

BY A BIGGER SMIMMER and plan your system better from the beginning, this will help greatly to reduce problems in the future!

BTW....Just My Opinion!

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12317857#post12317857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cashman95
IMO......If done right, a fuge with algea growing to absorb nutrients can be effective, but it needs to have filtered water(skimmer), and proper flow, otherwise it can be a nutrient sink. A DSB in a slow flowing algea absorbing fuge is a problem waiting to happen. It has been stated by many experts(calfo,etc.) that a fuge even if done right can be more of a problem than a help. (Releasing toxins, trapping detrius, dieing off and releasing nutrients back into the water, etc.) AND MOST ALL EXPERTS state: that if you are going to have one, it needs to be big in order to be helpful.

With that said...IMO fuges are suppose to be a place where pods and etc. can take refuge from predators while suppling your tank with live food. The algea in fuges was only incorporated as a food source for the pods and not for absorbing nutrients.

Will I have an algea scrubbing fuge........NOT A CHANCE! Keep it simple is my motto!!!! Just look at many of the TOTM's and see if they are running any kind of algea scrubbing fuge......

BY A BIGGER SMIMMER and plan your system better from the beginning, this will help greatly to reduce problems in the future!

BTW....Just My Opinion!

I have always felt and posted that there are two "main" uses of a refugium and those are dictated by flow rates

the original purpose I guess of a refugium was to produce a variety and greater quantity of copopods, inverts, and useful bacteria for the DT. In order to do this you need minimal flow through the fuge. Reef rubble and a sandbed of 3 inches or so was suggested as they provided habitats for certain varieties of inverts to grow and increase their numbers.

another main function that is rapidly increasing is using the refugium to export nitrates and phosphates. In this case you need a good flow through it to deliver the goods to a big mass of thriving chaeto.

if you just want the fuge to export nitrates and phosphates--then all you need is the chaeto or other suitable macro--no reef rubble no sand bed to become the nitrogen sinks that you mention.

When reefers try to blend both functions into one refugium, then this is when the problem arises IMO

In either case it should be noted that another benifet of both systems is oxygen production and a lowering of carbon dioxide which does keep the pH stable in the water column

I wish you would join us on this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1349443

BTW
In my system the protein skimmer plays a secondary role. I believe in a coral tank that an enriched water column with phyto and zooplankton really helps with coral growth. I really don't want to skimm it all out of there.
My buddy and I have two tanks almost identical except he has this monstrous Euro skimmer, I have a piddle Berlin. We both have refugiums ect. My corals are doing alot better

 

[asonitez]

I have been noticing that a lot of the TOTMS rely on more mechanical means of filtration than refugiums. They use reactrors, big skimmers, and dose to maintain their equilibrium (sp) Maybe I should abandon the Idea of a Refugium and focus more on methanical methods of removing excess nutriends from the water column.

 

[asonitez]

A Remote Fuge is the possibility for me. I have a 10 Gallon Tank that I could dedicate to a fuge. what would be the best way to get water into and out of it?

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12349061#post12349061 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asonitez
A Remote Fuge is the possibility for me. I have a 10 Gallon Tank that I could dedicate to a fuge. what would be the best way to get water into and out of it?

have you checked out the thread I linked above--its getting quite long now--I am sure you will find a fuge setup that would match your needs

consider these uses of refugiums:
extra volume of water to your total water column
safe haven more inverts such as copopods to to reproduce as food for the display tank
space to include more live rock and or rock rubble which will biologically act on the entire water column
added nitrate and phosphate reduction through chaeto and or sand bed

oh and most important a place to put your hermits when they are attacking the snail population:lol:

any mechanical means you might add to reduce nitrates and phosphates don't have these advantages