Boxfish in a reef
- Thread starter FishyMel
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streetjudge79
Active member
Aren't they poisonous? One squirt and there goes your system.
FishyMel
New member
A. My mixed reef has only a sailfin tang, cb butterfly and clownfish. The poison doesn't affect inverts so risk is minimal.
B. I've heard once they are in captivity awhile they lack the food it requires to produce the toxin.
C. I've had one die in my tank before and nothing happened.
What I am mainly concerned about is him eating the corals. They are reefsafe "with caution". Is it referring to shrimp, crabs, etc is my question?
Thanks.
B. I've heard once they are in captivity awhile they lack the food it requires to produce the toxin.
C. I've had one die in my tank before and nothing happened.
What I am mainly concerned about is him eating the corals. They are reefsafe "with caution". Is it referring to shrimp, crabs, etc is my question?
Thanks.
MattL
New member
This question is an excellent reminder to please research a fish before you buy it. Boxfish are extremely difficult to keep, and require a tank specially suited to their needs.
Boxfish cannot be kept with aggressive tankmates, so that option is eliminated.
In fact, that would be the absolute worst thing you could do.
Boxfish do not take to captivity and confinement well. It is their nature to flee from stress rather than fight it. It will become stressed if it can't move away from the nuisance.
If you try, and the boxfish either dies or becomes stressed, they can (and will) release lethal amounts of their protective slime coating (ostratoxin). The boxfish you purchased (Octracion meleagris) is most known for this. A release will kill any vertebrate marine life in your system. Running massive amounts of carbon and protein skimming can attenuate the damages done by ostratoxin, but because they are so fragile, by the time you are dealing with stress of that magnitude, you are losing the boxfish. Also, they are extremely prone to Ich.
Your only option would be your reef tank.
Boxfish are not considered reefsafe either. They will eat mollusks (clams, snails). I'm not sure if they will sample coral. Again, they need to be free from active feeders and they require a very large tank with lots of open swimming space. Like a Mandarin, they need to feed constantly throughout the day as they have very small stomachs, and often slowly starve to death in captivity.
I wouldn't consider one for any tank less than 6ft. However, if these conditions are met, then yes, I could imagine a reef is okay if you don't mind losing certain invertebrates.
As a last note, boxfish have also been known to be destructive to acrylic aquariums, as their beak is sharp enough to scratch and take chips out of a tank.
Matt
Boxfish cannot be kept with aggressive tankmates, so that option is eliminated.
In fact, that would be the absolute worst thing you could do.
Boxfish do not take to captivity and confinement well. It is their nature to flee from stress rather than fight it. It will become stressed if it can't move away from the nuisance.
If you try, and the boxfish either dies or becomes stressed, they can (and will) release lethal amounts of their protective slime coating (ostratoxin). The boxfish you purchased (Octracion meleagris) is most known for this. A release will kill any vertebrate marine life in your system. Running massive amounts of carbon and protein skimming can attenuate the damages done by ostratoxin, but because they are so fragile, by the time you are dealing with stress of that magnitude, you are losing the boxfish. Also, they are extremely prone to Ich.
Your only option would be your reef tank.
Boxfish are not considered reefsafe either. They will eat mollusks (clams, snails). I'm not sure if they will sample coral. Again, they need to be free from active feeders and they require a very large tank with lots of open swimming space. Like a Mandarin, they need to feed constantly throughout the day as they have very small stomachs, and often slowly starve to death in captivity.
I wouldn't consider one for any tank less than 6ft. However, if these conditions are met, then yes, I could imagine a reef is okay if you don't mind losing certain invertebrates.
As a last note, boxfish have also been known to be destructive to acrylic aquariums, as their beak is sharp enough to scratch and take chips out of a tank.
Matt
FishyMel
New member
I do realize the importance of researching before buying. I have had boxfish in a aggressive tank before w/o problems so I am not inexperienced and I am well read. Not only have I read but I've had boxfish. I did not jump into an area of inexpertise.
I mildly disagree with the statement that they can't be kept with aggressive tankmates. No they aren't compatible with a queen trigger but they can be compatible with puffers and some of the more docile triggers such as the picasso. I kept one with succssfully before in a tank with such fish. I had him about 2 years and he was a longhorn cowfish. He also when he died did not release any such "toxins".
Info on the internet is sketchy. You never know what to trust and what not to trust. I've read of people having success with them in their reef, I've heard of people w/o such success.
I also know somebody in town whose super male o. meleagris killed a queen angelfish. They can be aggressive if they choose to be so. They do have that beak shaped mouth and it can do quite a bit of damage if they have that type of personality. I am strongly of the belief that you can not place universal traits on a particular species of fish.
Before buying this fish I knew that he could work out in either one of my tanks. I am just debating on which one would be a better fit. Not which one is the fit.
The tank is a oceanic 75 glass. The o. meleagris only gets 6 inches, a 75 is more than large enough, especially when it is mostly an open sand bed and reef in the corner. It is a good set-up for a solitary boxfish. He also once again would once again only be with a small sailfin tang, small cb and a small clownfish. The tank would be mostly his.
I want definitive information, not speculations off of sketchy research.
I mildly disagree with the statement that they can't be kept with aggressive tankmates. No they aren't compatible with a queen trigger but they can be compatible with puffers and some of the more docile triggers such as the picasso. I kept one with succssfully before in a tank with such fish. I had him about 2 years and he was a longhorn cowfish. He also when he died did not release any such "toxins".
Info on the internet is sketchy. You never know what to trust and what not to trust. I've read of people having success with them in their reef, I've heard of people w/o such success.
I also know somebody in town whose super male o. meleagris killed a queen angelfish. They can be aggressive if they choose to be so. They do have that beak shaped mouth and it can do quite a bit of damage if they have that type of personality. I am strongly of the belief that you can not place universal traits on a particular species of fish.
Before buying this fish I knew that he could work out in either one of my tanks. I am just debating on which one would be a better fit. Not which one is the fit.
The tank is a oceanic 75 glass. The o. meleagris only gets 6 inches, a 75 is more than large enough, especially when it is mostly an open sand bed and reef in the corner. It is a good set-up for a solitary boxfish. He also once again would once again only be with a small sailfin tang, small cb and a small clownfish. The tank would be mostly his.
I want definitive information, not speculations off of sketchy research.
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I agree with Matt's post. Boxfish have very specific requirements, and cannot be kept with aggressive/fast feeders, whether they release their toxin or not. They have some very specific requirements to thrive in captivity.
I'd also make the case that your own experience with your previous cowfish (from post in FO/Aggressive forum) illustrates that they can't be kept long term with aggressive feeders:
The boxfish in my 55 gallon tank will not get over 4 inches. It is under 3 inches now, and all over the tank, constantly picking and eating. Along with the seahorses, it generally gets fed multiple times a day. It has lots of live rock, small inverts and macro to pick at. And while it's healthy, it is far from fat. I think this 55 is just barely large enough for the fish as it is. If it attains its full potential size, I may move it to a larger tank that it can have more to itself.
I don't have definitive information on your boxfish, but from what I know of mine, I am not convinced your 75 is big enough. Especially with a tang that quickly gets quite large, a clown, which may be aggressive/territorial, and a CBB, which also gets large, and may compete for food off the live rock and sand. You are probably okay for now, but I'd consider a tank for this fish to have to itself, or a larger tank for it to share with very passive tankmates.
I'd also make the case that your own experience with your previous cowfish (from post in FO/Aggressive forum) illustrates that they can't be kept long term with aggressive feeders:
The boxfish in my 55 gallon tank will not get over 4 inches. It is under 3 inches now, and all over the tank, constantly picking and eating. Along with the seahorses, it generally gets fed multiple times a day. It has lots of live rock, small inverts and macro to pick at. And while it's healthy, it is far from fat. I think this 55 is just barely large enough for the fish as it is. If it attains its full potential size, I may move it to a larger tank that it can have more to itself.
I don't have definitive information on your boxfish, but from what I know of mine, I am not convinced your 75 is big enough. Especially with a tang that quickly gets quite large, a clown, which may be aggressive/territorial, and a CBB, which also gets large, and may compete for food off the live rock and sand. You are probably okay for now, but I'd consider a tank for this fish to have to itself, or a larger tank for it to share with very passive tankmates.
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MattL
New member
If I understand correctly, you kept a cowfish before, not the trunkfish O. meleagris.
Cowfish and trunkfish are actually very different, in terms of behavior, feeding, toxicity, and likelihood of said toxin release.
I just wanted to say that I do understand what you are saying, and I understand the conundrum of having some people say yes and some people say no and the confusion that results.
That said, the written literature is fairly consistent on these fish, and my experience with them does not cause me any reason to disagree. Have you checked Bob Fenner's site? All your answers are there.
Are you sure that it was an O. meleagris?
I highly doubt the trunkfish was responsible for the death, although it might have taken a bite out of a deceased fish.
The other reason I question the story is that there is no super male phenomenon in trunkfish.
This is true and I hoped that if I didn't convey it, that I do now.
But again, there are stereotypic behaviors of all fish species, and it is extraordinarily rare to find one that deviates.
10 inches.
Then I think the answer is that your reef tank is the best place for him, at least for now. The inhabitants are peaceful, and the tang and boxfish have disparate feeding behaviors.
Be sure to quarantine all involved as O. meleagris are extremely prone to Ich.
A 75 is still a very small tank, but I do not know how fast they grow (or the likelihood of reaching a full 10in.). Still, I imagine the sailfin tang will outgrow the 75 well before the boxfish does.
Again, check the written literature and the experts who have handled these fish for years. Your answers will be there.
Matt
It's unfortunate that there isn't more information boxfish/cowfish on Fenner's site, I use it a lot for species research. There are some errors and inconsistencies in the FAQ (different people) and the article is pretty thin. On the FAQ, for example, in the link you referenced, one of the WWM crew said NO boxfish could go in a 55 because they were not aware of any that are under 18 inches. So it's still hard to find definitive information.
There used to be a good website, cowfishes.com, but it seems to be defunct.
I wish I could find another reticulate boxfish, they are pretty perfect. They stay small and while spunky, mine is not aggressive at all. The males are as pretty as the blue boxfish, but smaller. However, Kevin Kohen at LA told me he has never seen a male, only the occasional females.
male O solorensis
female (like I have)
It would be a great service if we could have a cowfishes/boxfishes primer thread, with people sharing their experience and pics of their fish.
BTW Matt, why do you say cowfishes and boxfishes are "very different, in terms of behavior, feeding, toxicity, and likelihood of said toxin release"? I have kept both and found their requirements to be very similar.
As far as toxin release, I accidentally killed a cowfish (had it quite a few years ago in a tank at work). I was doing a quick water change over lunch, then got called to an unscheduled "emergency" meeting during lunch. I had to leave the fish in the bucket. When I got back to my office about 1.5 hours later, the fish was dead. I believe it poisoned itself in the bucket.
There used to be a good website, cowfishes.com, but it seems to be defunct.
I wish I could find another reticulate boxfish, they are pretty perfect. They stay small and while spunky, mine is not aggressive at all. The males are as pretty as the blue boxfish, but smaller. However, Kevin Kohen at LA told me he has never seen a male, only the occasional females.
male O solorensis
female (like I have)
It would be a great service if we could have a cowfishes/boxfishes primer thread, with people sharing their experience and pics of their fish.
BTW Matt, why do you say cowfishes and boxfishes are "very different, in terms of behavior, feeding, toxicity, and likelihood of said toxin release"? I have kept both and found their requirements to be very similar.
As far as toxin release, I accidentally killed a cowfish (had it quite a few years ago in a tank at work). I was doing a quick water change over lunch, then got called to an unscheduled "emergency" meeting during lunch. I had to leave the fish in the bucket. When I got back to my office about 1.5 hours later, the fish was dead. I believe it poisoned itself in the bucket.
MattL
New member
Yeah, I've seen that. I assumed that was a typo. There are errors on that site, but I've always been able to deduce the answer.
I have never seen a O. meleagris in the wild bigger than my shoe.
Well, if they are like other trunkfish, they should be sequential protogyny hermaphrodites. I don't know why males wouldn't appear in collection, but maybe if you started with two females, you'd end up with a pair?
I agree. There should be a primer on all difficult fish!
For me, cowfish seem to be more durable and bold than the O. meleagris I've seen collected, and that cowfish are more ready to take food out of the water column while O. meleagris are more likely to want to graze and require constant feedings.
Now for toxicity, the only evidence I have is Bob Fenner, but he reports that O. meleagris is not only more toxic, but more likely to release its toxin.
Matt
FishyMel
New member
Yes, the trunk fish killed him. I am not lying. The man saw the trunk kill him. After he killed the queen angel he took a trip back to the fish store. I saw the particular trunkfish. He did not behave like a docile fish, he behaved like an aggressive pufferfish. Biting at the glass, spitting water out, etc. I was going to buy him for my fish only but I didn't because the next day I was leaving for vacation
On a couple sites I've seen them labeled as semi-aggressive while the other boxes were labeled aggressive. Yes, I guess it is all relative.
My personal definition of super male is a highly dominant, brightly colored male when there are sexually dimorphic differences in the species.
I was misinformed about the fish's size, in the liveaquaria info chart it explicitly said 6 inches. I just checked fish base and realized that they must've been mistaken. If this fish works out I am more than willing to buy him a bigger home. I do like taking the best quality care for my fish. In your experience how fast growing are they. I've found fish that only get 10 inches grow very slowly, IE picasso trigger, tassle file. My cowfish only grew 2 inches in two years.
Yesterday, I thoroughly read wetwebmedia as I do believe it is a good info source. From it I achieved that they may or may not be reef-safe but I would be willing to risk it, as I would sell the corals if it didn't work.
Based on the disposition I was going to observe in quarantine was I going to decide if he belongs better in the 75 or 200 fowlr. I was leaning towards the 75 but if he was anything like the boxfish I saw at the lfs I thought he could go in the 200.
I am aware sailfins get big. I bought him because my caulerpa in my reef went crazy and I needed some control fast. He is very tiny right now, only 2 inches and I was planning on rehoming him or putting him in the 200 when he got bigger.
Thanks for your help
Some thoughts:
- A 200 gallon tank is insufficient for an adult sailfin.
- In general I agree with Matt and Lisa above but my experience is ONLY from photographing them in the wild.
- Bob Fenner is normally my authority on fish I have not personally experienced so if he advises caution, I would believe him.
-Caulerpa in a reef is a very bad situation that is not easily remedied. Virtually impossible to remove it once it is in
- Due to the risk of stress, I would put a boxfish in a reef tank rather than an aggressive FOWLR tank
- A 200 gallon tank is insufficient for an adult sailfin.
- In general I agree with Matt and Lisa above but my experience is ONLY from photographing them in the wild.
- Bob Fenner is normally my authority on fish I have not personally experienced so if he advises caution, I would believe him.
-Caulerpa in a reef is a very bad situation that is not easily remedied. Virtually impossible to remove it once it is in
- Due to the risk of stress, I would put a boxfish in a reef tank rather than an aggressive FOWLR tank
FishyMel
New member
I did suggest rehoming if his size demands, but typically a 135 is recommended, I thought. If you read the tang in a 30 gallon thread they recommend such. Right now I believe he is fine for the moment. As you even mentioned, caulerpa is a nuisance in a reef and a hard issue to tackle, I needed a quick solution. He was looking good at the store and eating caulerpa, so I took him. He was also small, 2 inches, and for some crazy reason only $15. He is currently doing a good job remedying the situation. The stuff is crazy, It came from nothing like spontaeous generation.
I never said I disagree with Bob Fenner, I said, as well as Lisa did, that many parts of the site are contradictory and therefore it is difficult to decipher answers.
I never said I disagree with Bob Fenner, I said, as well as Lisa did, that many parts of the site are contradictory and therefore it is difficult to decipher answers.
I would put him in the reef and see how he does. You already bought him and I am beginning to think there is a lot of hearsay on the subject. My Marine Fish Guide says this fish gets 6 inches as well so thats one more inconsistency. If anything else we will get a first hand experience with this species so I think it is a good thing!
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