Breeding Log: Pterapogon Kaudnerni
- Thread starter papagimp
- Start date
Adam,
From what I've read, the male bangaii doesn't eat when holding a clutch of eggs. Once the young are released by the male, he can eat.
Is there a brief respite before the male will attempt to take on another clutch of eggs? There is a potential for starvation on the males part (I'm talking food here, not sex).
Ray
From what I've read, the male bangaii doesn't eat when holding a clutch of eggs. Once the young are released by the male, he can eat.
Is there a brief respite before the male will attempt to take on another clutch of eggs? There is a potential for starvation on the males part (I'm talking food here, not sex).
Ray
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
yes, definatly considered and decided that once my 20g L is ready for the parents, I'll be getting a long spiney black urchin or two. Most likely two so I can try and breed those as well. The 20L is going to be the parents tank, with some kind of divider in place to allow the babies to escape from the hungry parents. then I'll have it sumped to a smaller tank that I'll use for an actual grow out tank. The new infants will stay in their sectioned off area until the next batch is ready, then I'll move em to the "grow out sump". As small as my 2 month old babies are, I think they could eat a newly released bangaii if they tried. (they can eat adult brine shrimp now and a newly released bangaii isn't much size differnce than that.) The DIY urchin was made specifically for this particular batch of babies. I only caught 12 last time and since males can release up to 50 babies, I think most of the last clutch was eaten after being released. If my husbandry practices improve and the survival rate of the babies increase, than I'm sure I'll need to upgrade the setup to allow for separation of males into individual containers and the females in a community tank of their own. Well see how that goes though. May just keep the females in my frag tank (once the 150 is up, my 55 is going all frags)
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8692870#post8692870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 2ras
Adam,
From what I've read, the male bangaii doesn't eat when holding a clutch of eggs. Once the young are released by the male, he can eat.
Is there a brief respite before the male will attempt to take on another clutch of eggs? There is a potential for starvation on the males part (I'm talking food here, not sex).
Ray
excellent questions Ray. The male does not eat the entire time he's holding. If he gets close to starvation he's got two options. One is to 'abort' the clutch. (swallow them or spit em out) The other is an early release. I think that may have something to do with the early release last time, he held unhatched eggs longer than normal so he was hungry. I made sure he was well fed and fattened up nicely before taking the next clutch in. There was a 2 week gap between release and spawning. Since the female is hinting at him now, their compatibility dance usually will occur about 2-3 weeks prior to spawning. I don't think the male will take anothe clutch unless he is ready. The female will just wait or try to find another male. The male can also, and usually will, swallow a few eggs or babies down the road to keep himself from starving and aborting the remaining babies. His mouth is a tad smaller than what i would have expected from seeing the eggs right after spawning. (he had a large mouth full of eggs, and the babies are obviously bigger than an egg now). Naturally I make sure the female gets nice and fattened up the entire time the male is holding the eggs. This will ensure her health as well as increase the clutch sizes. But once these babies are released, it's open season on baby bangaii's. I'm sure the male probably ate a few last time as hungry as he was. Didn't get fed until I came home and saw the babies. Immediatly went to work with a net while jess started feeding the bangaii's making sure they left any offspring alone for the time being.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
Failures and Theories: Babies Released 12/06/2006
Failures and Theories: Babies Released 12/06/2006
Woke up this morning only to see my male bangaii with no babies in his mouth. Immediatly set out to looking all over the place for them. I managed to only find 4 of them, 3 of which have been moved to the 2.5g grow out while 1 has managed to elude my net skills for the time being. My DIY urchin seemed to have been comletely useless in this case. Out it comes!, As for the multitude of babies I never found or seen, I can only assume that the male releaed shrotly after or directly prior to lights out. This would have given the "tank" time to devour enough of them overnight. So sad, so very sad. put me in quit a grumpy mood thismorning, I had very high hopes for this batch. But it's a continuous learning process I have embarked upon with these bangaii's, so now I will be upscaling my efforts to get their breeding tank completely ready. I have LS in it, water, and time to get the rest going. I want this tank ready prior to the next spawning, The male can be caught now with a fish trap, seeing how he is eating again, but once they spawn, it would probably take a complete tear down to get to him. AAAARRRRRRRRRRR, so frustrating. So, to some up, I'm back up to having 8 babies again.
Failures and Theories: Babies Released 12/06/2006
Woke up this morning only to see my male bangaii with no babies in his mouth. Immediatly set out to looking all over the place for them. I managed to only find 4 of them, 3 of which have been moved to the 2.5g grow out while 1 has managed to elude my net skills for the time being. My DIY urchin seemed to have been comletely useless in this case. Out it comes!, As for the multitude of babies I never found or seen, I can only assume that the male releaed shrotly after or directly prior to lights out. This would have given the "tank" time to devour enough of them overnight. So sad, so very sad. put me in quit a grumpy mood thismorning, I had very high hopes for this batch. But it's a continuous learning process I have embarked upon with these bangaii's, so now I will be upscaling my efforts to get their breeding tank completely ready. I have LS in it, water, and time to get the rest going. I want this tank ready prior to the next spawning, The male can be caught now with a fish trap, seeing how he is eating again, but once they spawn, it would probably take a complete tear down to get to him. AAAARRRRRRRRRRR, so frustrating. So, to some up, I'm back up to having 8 babies again.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
That's bad news! But, good that you found at least a few of them. All I can say is Better luck next time, and I'll eagerly be waiting for more news.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
Thanks for the kind words. I'm sure I'll have better luck next time. My plans for the breeding setup is actually pretty good if I do say so myself, but just not being implemented yet. I thought my bangaii setup would be completed by now, but you know how money issues tend to go with this hobby. At least I got a really good picture before i went to bed last night, got a full frontal shot of the male bangaii with about 3 or 4 babies poking their faces out to the camera. I'll just pretend those are the ones I caught. But for good news, as I mentioned yesterday, the female is obviously ready to spawn again, per her little dances towards him. So I expect another spawn within the next few weeks. I havn't even been feeding my female live foods (well, no frozen food either) She's been on the same pellets i've always fed my tank, only I've been soaking them in minced garlic. I've seent he success Paul W. has had with his fish eating this stuff, and I remember how well the Discus I kept looked with garlic in their daily diet. So, she's fat and ready, now to spend the next few weeks fattening up the male....he didn't act very hungry this morning when I fed him...I can guess why though. =o(
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Do you think he could have swallowed the babies and only a few escaped?
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
It's possible Travis, but I honestly don't think that was the case. The release times seem to be coinciding around lights out, If he was going to swallow them, he's had more than ample time. He had the hatched eggs for about 4 days and since a week is typical, and he released early last time, I'm assuming it was intentional release, not dumb escapee luck. He's alway very protective of his clutch, won't let me near him while he's holding, always stays in the back of the tank. Now keep in mind I am severly new at breeding fish and even more so at marine fish, so all my assumptions are based more on gut feeling than actual fact here. (maybe i just don't like to think of daddy eating all his little babies, although I remember a few threats of that sort from my own dad....."I brought you into this world and by god I can take you back out...now go to your room!" )
Travis L. Stevens
New member
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Well, it was just a thought. Hopefully more turn up somewhere today. Do you think it might be a good idea to get a red light in your room for when the lights go out? You could take a shop light, plug it in to the wall, hang it from the ceiling, and buy a couple of those slip-over-light-cover-tube-thingies that are red.
Well, it was just a thought. Hopefully more turn up somewhere today. Do you think it might be a good idea to get a red light in your room for when the lights go out? You could take a shop light, plug it in to the wall, hang it from the ceiling, and buy a couple of those slip-over-light-cover-tube-thingies that are red.
Travis L. Stevens
New member
Whoops. I derailed my train of thought with work for once 
The purpose of the red light would be so you can turn the tank lights off, hide in a corner, let the daddy release the babies, and then hunt them down in the red light. The red light doesn't spook the fish much.
The purpose of the red light would be so you can turn the tank lights off, hide in a corner, let the daddy release the babies, and then hunt them down in the red light. The red light doesn't spook the fish much.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
aaahhhh, well that may have worked. But since Daddy fishie is getting his own tank soon, I don't think this is going to be much of an issue anymore. Once I have my completed Bangaii Breeding setup, I should be seeing alot more yeilds from their spawnings. My first attempt to raise babies was nothing more than that, an attempt to see if I wanted to pursue breeding int he future. It's gone well so far, dispite a few setbacks, I think with better setup I will be far more productive.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
Interesting tid bits
Interesting tid bits
After the almost complete washout of this last batch, I have been re-reading articles, looking up new information, and trying to see what i can do to improve success rates with raising and breeding bangaii's. If I'm going to breed fish, I want to do it very succesfully and with anyluck have enoug income from it to help pay for the costs of added tanks, grow outs, feed, ect. ect...
While reading through some information I found a few interesting facts that eluded my brain the first few times through.
1. Males will actually lose upwards of 15-20 eggs while attempting to draw them from the female. As she releases the eggs, the male will grab ahold of the clutch and actually pull this from her body, the eggs have a stringy matrix that tends to hold them together but several will fall to the sandbed and become critter food.
2. In wild Bangaii's the release of the babies will occur over the course of 1-3 days, it's not until that last bit are released that he goes hunting for his food. My Bangaii seems to release all his at once, could be nutrition oriented. If he hasn't eaten well prior to spawning taking place he'll have more difficult time holding to full term.
3. The time from eggs hatching to baby release can be between 6-10 days, so my bangaii releasing at 4 days isn't really that soon. Just long enough to get em free swimming. If he released newly hatch babies, they don't swim on their own very well and this will lead to detrimental effects on health and growth.
4. Temperature has severe effects upon growth rate of juviniles as well as egg development. My bangaii's latest clutch hatched at approximatly 32 days. The normals is actually about 19-20 days. My tank temp average is about 79-81 degrees, but temp is the one battle I keep loosing in this hobby. No central heat and air and with the weather chilling at night like it does here, temperature waxes and wanes severly throughout a 24 hour period. This low temp at night, even with the male incubating the eggs may be having an impact on the development of the eggs which in turn leads to a longer incubation period. In turn this could account for a hungrier male bangaii, releasing the hatched eggs quicker, and naturally going after any food he can find.
Just some neat stuff I read and thought I'd pass one to anyone considering Bangaii's for there Reef. This whole trial and error thing I'm going through is frustrating but in time I expect larger yields and higher survival rates. This is turning into quite the little venture.
Interesting tid bits
After the almost complete washout of this last batch, I have been re-reading articles, looking up new information, and trying to see what i can do to improve success rates with raising and breeding bangaii's. If I'm going to breed fish, I want to do it very succesfully and with anyluck have enoug income from it to help pay for the costs of added tanks, grow outs, feed, ect. ect...
While reading through some information I found a few interesting facts that eluded my brain the first few times through.
1. Males will actually lose upwards of 15-20 eggs while attempting to draw them from the female. As she releases the eggs, the male will grab ahold of the clutch and actually pull this from her body, the eggs have a stringy matrix that tends to hold them together but several will fall to the sandbed and become critter food.
2. In wild Bangaii's the release of the babies will occur over the course of 1-3 days, it's not until that last bit are released that he goes hunting for his food. My Bangaii seems to release all his at once, could be nutrition oriented. If he hasn't eaten well prior to spawning taking place he'll have more difficult time holding to full term.
3. The time from eggs hatching to baby release can be between 6-10 days, so my bangaii releasing at 4 days isn't really that soon. Just long enough to get em free swimming. If he released newly hatch babies, they don't swim on their own very well and this will lead to detrimental effects on health and growth.
4. Temperature has severe effects upon growth rate of juviniles as well as egg development. My bangaii's latest clutch hatched at approximatly 32 days. The normals is actually about 19-20 days. My tank temp average is about 79-81 degrees, but temp is the one battle I keep loosing in this hobby. No central heat and air and with the weather chilling at night like it does here, temperature waxes and wanes severly throughout a 24 hour period. This low temp at night, even with the male incubating the eggs may be having an impact on the development of the eggs which in turn leads to a longer incubation period. In turn this could account for a hungrier male bangaii, releasing the hatched eggs quicker, and naturally going after any food he can find.
Just some neat stuff I read and thought I'd pass one to anyone considering Bangaii's for there Reef. This whole trial and error thing I'm going through is frustrating but in time I expect larger yields and higher survival rates. This is turning into quite the little venture.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
I have two heaters right now, a 150w and a 200w. I've got one on order right now, it's a 500w with dual temp controller. I know it's a bit excessive but I'm hoping with the controller i can keep the temp more stable. It's a cheaper unit from Odeysea so if it turns out to be crap then I'm only out about 15 bucks. The temp has been staying more stable the last couple weeks, but i don't think it was enough or in time. I hate to stick insulation around the tank due to a curious cat and dog in the house. But do appreciate the offer.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
Update: Pictures 12/09/2006
Update: Pictures 12/09/2006
Heres a few new photo's.
1) This is the male prior to his release last week, but you clearly see the little tykes peeking out.
2) This shows the difference between a 2 month old Bangaii and his new little brother or sister, less than a week old. I didn't realize they had grown THIS much. And so far, they seem to get along just great. The 4 new babies are all schooling together with the big brothers and sisters. Just for reference, the little guy is directly above the bigger guy, those are actual size in comparison.
3) Last but not least, this ones just cool looking.
Update: Pictures 12/09/2006
Heres a few new photo's.
1) This is the male prior to his release last week, but you clearly see the little tykes peeking out.
2) This shows the difference between a 2 month old Bangaii and his new little brother or sister, less than a week old. I didn't realize they had grown THIS much. And so far, they seem to get along just great. The 4 new babies are all schooling together with the big brothers and sisters. Just for reference, the little guy is directly above the bigger guy, those are actual size in comparison.
3) Last but not least, this ones just cool looking.
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
Update: New Spawning.
Update: New Spawning.
The Amazing and Severely Insatiable Bangaii's do it again! Sunday sometime around noon my pair of bangaii's spawn for the third time since I've brought em home from the LFS. I'm a tad concerned over this spawning cause I don't feel the male had enough time to recouperate from the last clutch he held. But we'll see. After this one, I'm going to separate the two and let him get his fill for several weeks before allowing this nympho behavior to continue.
And on another good note, I have read through numerous claims on various message boards about raising bangaii's and getting them to eat prepared foods. Some claim they only ever feed their babies cyclopeeze from the start, bypassing the entire brine shrimp thingy all together. So, for kicks I fed only cyclops for the past weekend. As of this morning the majority of babies, 1st and 2nd batch, were witnessed eating the cyclopeeze. sure beats hatching brine shrimp all the time, and gotta be healthier.
Stay tuned for more exciting news from the wonderful world of fish!
Update: New Spawning.
The Amazing and Severely Insatiable Bangaii's do it again! Sunday sometime around noon my pair of bangaii's spawn for the third time since I've brought em home from the LFS. I'm a tad concerned over this spawning cause I don't feel the male had enough time to recouperate from the last clutch he held. But we'll see. After this one, I'm going to separate the two and let him get his fill for several weeks before allowing this nympho behavior to continue.
And on another good note, I have read through numerous claims on various message boards about raising bangaii's and getting them to eat prepared foods. Some claim they only ever feed their babies cyclopeeze from the start, bypassing the entire brine shrimp thingy all together. So, for kicks I fed only cyclops for the past weekend. As of this morning the majority of babies, 1st and 2nd batch, were witnessed eating the cyclopeeze. sure beats hatching brine shrimp all the time, and gotta be healthier.
Stay tuned for more exciting news from the wonderful world of fish!
papagimp
COMAS Rocks!
That's funny you should mention that paul, me and jessica were discussing out plans for the future of our bangaii's and decided to put together a journal. I already have all the information that I'm basing my breeding technique from. And have started keeping more in detail records starting from this batch. The others were so unexpected, well, this latest was too, but i don't think there ever going to "wait" for me to get my stuff ready, lol. We quickly realized that a 20g grow out tank is not going to be big enough either!
