Brooklynella, velvet or uronema in microscope

[mattcoug]

I have several fish in a 125G QT that is partitioned. It is an all fish in, treat, all fish out kind of system.

This time around, the fish received 3 rounds of PP, each 5 days apart, then CP at 10mg/l. 17 days into the CP, everything was great in the morning, but when I got home at night I noticed the powder brown tang hanging out next to a powerhead which to me was a red flag. I used a strong flashlight to examine all the fish. I noticed a few had a couple specks of white spots on fins. To me this looked like ick or velvet, so again dosed CP in the tank to bring it up to 20 mg/l, which seems to be the max common dose for an active infection. Over the next 18 hours I have now lost a baby Joc anglefish, the powder brown tang, and a mac tang.

The remaining fish in the system are very large passer anglefish(12', sick, lost color, no activity, cloudy eyes),
magnificent rabbitfish, (no symptoms)
hybrid lemonpeel angelfish(no symptoms)
coral beauty angelfish(gasping very hard, no visible symptoms)

I just did gill biopsy, skin scrape etc of the dead fish, and posted video of the parasite. From the video I am thinking Brook, but the fact that they are still cruising around with CP at 20mg/l for 18 hours gives me doubts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBwXGkZ7W1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tZv2aaCTI


If I can't stop it I am sure the remaining fish will soon die, so I just dropped in API general cure to get metronidazole into the system.

I just tested the ammonia, and nitrite to both still be 0, so I got the dead fish out before it was too late. Salinity is at 1.020 in this tank.

Any suggestions, or you guys think I am doing the right thing here?

 

[HumbleFish]

I would PM Newsmyrna80 or billsreef, and ask one of them to look at this thread.

 

[mattcoug]

I would PM Newsmyrna80 or billsreef, and ask one of them to look at this thread.

Thanks, PMs sent.

The passer and coral beauty didn't make it though the night. Here is the quick summary.

Wed morning - all is fine
Wed night - some fish show symptoms - increase CP to 20 mg/l
Thurs morning - Joc baby dead
Friday morning - powder brown tang dead, mac tang dead - added API general Cure
Sat morning - passer dead, coral beauty dead

The lemonpeel hybrid is now hiding from light, but the magnificent foxface seem unaffected so far.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

First of all let me applaud you on effort to correctly ID the parasite you are dealing with. I almost bought a microscope once for the same reason you have posted the videos. However, there aren't very many photos or videos available for comparison of parasites. The only way i thought I could figure the whole thing out is if I had one fish infected with crypto, another with brook, and then compare the visual symptoms to help "assign" a moving parasite to its appropriate category. Crypto and Brook are visually not as challenging to tell apart based on the external symptoms displayed on fish's skin. But I decided to rely just on visual symptoms. I think the key is to have formalin (37-40%) for brook and copper for ich and velvet

If you posted pictures you would probably get more responses. But based on the type of fish is being wiped out and the time its taking to kill them I would go ahead and guess that it's marine velvet.

 

[billsreef]

What's on the video is not velvet. However, the problem with scrapings from dead fish is that the parasites typically leave and what you find is simply scavenger type protozoans instead. With a necropsy, your better looking at clipping from the gills and looking for telltale signs of damage. Same with doing squashes of internal organs. The best, is to sacrifice a moribund (think Monty Python and "I'm not dead yet") fish for those gill clippings, skin scrapings, fin clippings and internal organ squashes under the microscope.

In this case, after so long in CP, I'd suspect either some odd opportunistic protozoan that isn't effective by CP (in which case I'd go with formalin) or flukes with secondary bacterial infections has possibility. The fluke option can be easily checked by giving symptomatic fish a fresh water dip for 1 to 5 minutes (dechlorinated and temperature adjusted, pH over 7) and looking for the snow globe effect.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Brooklynella, velvet or uronema in microscope

What's on the video is not velvet.

How did you determine that? I just took a guess as I don't know how different parasites look under microscope. What are the distinguishing characteristics of common parasites under scope?
Yeah, copper could have killed velvet by now but we don't know how many days the OP had it in the tank. formalin dips and freshwater dips are other ways to come up with a more accurate ID.

 

[billsreef]

How did you determine that?

I've seen Amyloodinium under the microscope

 

[Newsmyrna80]

^agree...it's not velvet. Based on the second video I'm leaning towards brook. You can see the cilia waving around. A couple of links with pics. You can see the difference in shapes between velvet and brook.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amyliddiag.htm
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/brookynella.html
Sorry but I couldn't get my videos to load.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Brook is nasty and quick. My newly imported clowns from Solomon Islands are being treated for it now.

 

[DasCamel]

Great video!! Incredible detail, you can tell with that notch that forms it's Brook! I went through all this a few months ago.

 

[mattcoug]

Thanks everyone for the advise and help here. The remaining fish died(4 days from first noticed symptoms, 7 fish dead), but I have another set of fish from the same sources in a second large QT tank so I am on edge.

Bill, I got video that shows what looks like a mouth. This make me think velvet by comparing it with the photo at the top of http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amyliddiag.htm. How does this compare with what you have seen under microscope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqnbST4fWSs&index=11&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh


For anyone who likes to get freaked out I also saw these, I have no idea what they are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW0qeg7-pF8&index=13&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nv2Hy1kGYM&index=3&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh


The fish never had visible slime in the tank, and it never sloughed off the way photos of brook suggest, but once I had them out of the tank and did the scrapes and gill biopsy, I noticed the gills were covered with so much slime it was like pudding. Also the skin had a thick coating. I wonder if it was too fast for the slime to "get old" and fall off, so they were covered with fresh, clear slime.


I've put 15mg/l of CP and .25 mg/l Cupramine into the second QT tank to cover my bases. I have both Rid-Ick Plus(11.52% formalin, 0.038%malachite green) and Paraguard on hand.

What is my best next move for the second tank?

(1)daily dip in one of these products
(2)change medication in the tank
(3)increase CP/Cupermine concentration
(4)just wait for more info/symptoms to appear

Usually I would go for (4) but after this past few days I am weary of waiting for symptoms.

Thanks,
-Matt


Playlist with all 13 videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh

 

[mattcoug]

Here is another with a mouth but looks a little different- about 10 sec in you can see what looks like it trying to eat something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ-W_cu4sao&index=8&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh


I suppose there could be more than one parasite.

-Matt

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Rid ich won't do anything. You need 37% formalin. Have you tried a FW dip to at least give the fish some relief? It's not a cure just a stop gap.

 

[billsreef]

Thanks everyone for the advise and help here. The remaining fish died(4 days from first noticed symptoms, 7 fish dead), but I have another set of fish from the same sources in a second large QT tank so I am on edge.

Bill, I got video that shows what looks like a mouth. This make me think velvet by comparing it with the photo at the top of http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amyliddiag.htm. How does this compare with what you have seen under microscope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqnbST4fWSs&index=11&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh


For anyone who likes to get freaked out I also saw these, I have no idea what they are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW0qeg7-pF8&index=13&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nv2Hy1kGYM&index=3&list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh


The fish never had visible slime in the tank, and it never sloughed off the way photos of brook suggest, but once I had them out of the tank and did the scrapes and gill biopsy, I noticed the gills were covered with so much slime it was like pudding. Also the skin had a thick coating. I wonder if it was too fast for the slime to "get old" and fall off, so they were covered with fresh, clear slime.


I've put 15mg/l of CP and .25 mg/l Cupramine into the second QT tank to cover my bases. I have both Rid-Ick Plus(11.52% formalin, 0.038%malachite green) and Paraguard on hand.

What is my best next move for the second tank?

(1)daily dip in one of these products
(2)change medication in the tank
(3)increase CP/Cupermine concentration
(4)just wait for more info/symptoms to appear

Usually I would go for (4) but after this past few days I am weary of waiting for symptoms.

Thanks,
-Matt


Playlist with all 13 videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCsSEBkWKx6WC5IcbNQaGQ8ob2C41whEh

While the shape is very similar, your video shows lots of cilia around, so it's a ciliated protozoan as opposed to a dinoflagellate. The two mysteries, the first might be piece of fish scale, the second I'm not sure.

BTW what are you using for these videos? While the field is small, the quality is excellent.

 

[mattcoug]

BTW what are you using for these videos? While the field is small, the quality is excellent.

I bought the linked microscope and am holding my iPhone 5s camera to one of the eye pieces. It is a little difficult to get everything lined up and I lock the camera focus and exposure. If I had a 3d printer I would create something to hold the phone in place. I thought about buying a camera eyepiece, but after looking around it appears the sensor in the iPhone is much better unless I spend more on the camera than on the microscope.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0094JTZOU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Most of the videos are shot using the 10x eyepiece with the 40x objective, IIRC there are a couple videos using the 20x eyepiece. I don't know much about microscopes, but this one has an adjustment on the light source from a point to full field. After a little fiddling with it, I was able to get a good contrast. I haven't tried staining or using the max 20x-100x yet. It needs an oil drop and these buggers move around so it might get messy following them around.

-Matt

 

[mattcoug]

Rid ich won't do anything. You need 37% formalin.

I checked four LFS for formalin 37% without luck, so I ordered from Amazon and will have to wait. In any case, I am curious why RidIch+ won't work - it is ~11% formalin so ~3x the dose should give the dip water the correct concentration of formaldehyde in the water? Will the included malachite green do something to interrupt this or is there some other ingredient that would cause problems? Am I comparing apple/oranges?

-Matt

[EDIT] I did some more googleing so I may answer myself - 37% formaldehyde is 100% formalin, so to get the correct concentration of formaldehyde, I would need 9x the dose of RidIck+. Is this correct? I guess the malachite green at 9x dose might kill the fish.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

I would do FW dips and put into a clean tank (like TT) until the formalin comes in. You can also use Quick Cure which can easily be found at Walmart. I cured an angel of brook by using it.

 

[billsreef]

Impressive pictures for holding a phone camera to the microscope. With the oil immersion lens you would indeed have trouble with quick moving beasties. Sometimes you can slow them down with a little bit of fiber to restrict their movements.

With the Quick Cure or Rid Ich, the formalin and malachite green combination is synergistic. If that's what you can get, use it, but stick to the label dosage.

 

[tylersarah]

Neat thread. Thanks for all your homework & sorry for your fish loss. Others, including myself will learn from your information.

 

[Curt2199]

I've wanted to pickup a microscope for this exact reason. My last experience was high school biology though so I'd need a refresher. Did you do some research that led you to the one on Amazon?