Building Big Bertha: 800G

[jnarowe]

I did a bunch of testing, plotting a production curve for my RO/DI against temperature, and decided I would feed it at 92F and 70psi.

I don't think you are supposed to warm it up that much. I have heard that from a couple manufacturers. When I did mine, I didn't have a booster pump yet.

As far as using 60g containers for SW and RO/DI, I think that is not large enough. I think you may be going on the idea of a weekly water change of 8%, which is about what I do, but your top-off water will run short IMO. An 800g system can evap 8 - 15+g per day and since you are in a low humidity area, I would suspect you to be at the higher end of the range, depending on how you cool, tank room conditions, etc.

I am using 96g containers for both SW and RO/DI and they are not big enough, particularly the RO/DI. With top-off and water changes, I figure I am going through at least 200g per week, and I just bought a 200g fiberglass tank to store RO/DI in.

I've learned a lot from observing others' failures,

You talking about me?? :lol: Steve Weast is gone a lot too and his tank runs great. I would definitely consult with him regarding long-term abscences. Does the Aquatronica email you for out-of-condition reports? My Neptune will email, page, and allow remote access. When I am gone, I set it to email my PDA or even the tank sitter's.

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10035151#post10035151 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
I don't think you are supposed to warm it up that much. I have heard that from a couple manufacturers. When I did mine, I didn't have a booster pump yet.

Nah, the FilmTec RO membranes are rated to at least 110F. I think I'm okay there. Had me scared for a minute, though.

As far as using 60g containers for SW and RO/DI, I think that is not large enough. I think you may be going on the idea of a weekly water change of 8%, which is about what I do, but your top-off water will run short IMO. An 800g system can evap 8 - 15+g per day and since you are in a low humidity area, I would suspect you to be at the higher end of the range, depending on how you cool, tank room conditions, etc.

Correct, the capacity for a weekly 6-8%-ish change is the idea. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the TO would run short, though: these 60g containers themselves will be continuously topped off with filtered water. The RODI can easily produce 60-75gpd. I expect evap to be between 15 and 20gal/day based on my experience with the old 225g.

You talking about me?? :lol: Steve Weast is gone a lot too and his tank runs great. I would definitely consult with him regarding long-term abscences. Does the Aquatronica email you for out-of-condition reports? My Neptune will email, page, and allow remote access. When I am gone, I set it to email my PDA or even the tank sitter's.

Heheh, maaaaybe. J/K. But, I'm sure you noticed recently, Steve's tank had a major meltdown. Interestingly, it sounded more like human error than just machines run amok while the humans were absent. (Not that I wish it upon him. That sucks!) More importantly, I happen to have that particular failure mode (overflowing skimmer) planned for already.

Ben

 

[cbui2]

lot of action going on Ben, aquascapes is great too. on mine i have 200gal ro/di and 200gal salt reservoir, i will be using the new ultra precise top-off module pump from spectrapure since i 10-15gal will be evaporated with high humidity down here. LM3 will be setup for continous water change approx. spread out to 8gal a day and the only thing i have to do turn ball valve to fill up SW reservoir and mixed more salt. also i feel that if new water is introduced to livestock weekly should be ok but monthly might be hard on the livestock and in my situtation work gets busy most of the time spending weekly water change to start off is ok but after awhile goes to monthly then keep on going.

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10035726#post10035726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cbui2
lot of action going on Ben, aquascapes is great too. on mine i have 200gal ro/di and 200gal salt reservoir, i will be using the new ultra precise top-off module pump from spectrapure since i 10-15gal will be evaporated with high humidity down here. LM3 will be setup for continous water change approx. spread out to 8gal a day and the only thing i have to do turn ball valve to fill up SW reservoir and mixed more salt. also i feel that if new water is introduced to livestock weekly should be ok but monthly might be hard on the livestock and in my situtation work gets busy most of the time spending weekly water change to start off is ok but after awhile goes to monthly then keep on going.

Hey Bart,

Yeah, I'd love to have 200g reservoirs. I'm not sure it's physically an option in my dwelling. If it causes problems I probably could find a way to do it, but I'm going to be gambling a little with only 120g of water at the ready for now.

As for the change frequency, I really hope to do it less than weekly. I will try to keep the bioload light enough and employ that monster skimmer to offset some of the work. Based on anecdotal data from other reefs, I think it may work.

Ben

 

["Umm fish?"]

Hey Ben! If I may, hopefully, add to the conversation....

What kind of TDS are you getting out of the RO/DI? Boulder water's pretty good and I was pretty consistently running at 45. My RO/DI unit worked really well for about a year and then it just sort of fizzled on me. It was a 60gal./day unit and it eventually got to where it was only barely keeping up with evaporation ... and then _wasn't_ keeping up any more. I changed the filters, cleaned the unit, and waited. No change. Buying water sucks. (I evaporate about 10gals./day.)

At that point, being frustrated beyond reckoning, I started investigating alternatives. I wound up with a Kold Ster il unit and I love it! 3.8 gallons per MINUTE with no waste water is making me (and my tank) much happier. Kip also sells DI-only units that could increase water production with no waste.

You might check them out later on when you get around the point you need to change filters.

Good luck! Your system's looking mighty fine!

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10036212#post10036212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
Hey Ben! If I may, hopefully, add to the conversation....

What kind of TDS are you getting out of the RO/DI? Boulder water's pretty good and I was pretty consistently running at 45. My RO/DI unit worked really well for about a year and then it just sort of fizzled on me. It was a 60gal./day unit and it eventually got to where it was only barely keeping up with evaporation ... and then _wasn't_ keeping up any more. I changed the filters, cleaned the unit, and waited. No change. Buying water sucks. (I evaporate about 10gals./day.)

At that point, being frustrated beyond reckoning, I started investigating alternatives. I wound up with a Kold Ster il unit and I love it! 3.8 gallons per MINUTE with no waste water is making me (and my tank) much happier. Kip also sells DI-only units that could increase water production with no waste.

You might check them out later on when you get around the point you need to change filters.

Good luck! Your system's looking mighty fine!

Hey Andy,

Wow, cool stuff -- I hadn't even heard of Kold-Steril or the "molecular sieve" concept. It sounds like it gets mixed reviews and may actually be more expensive per unit product? I'm on a well (I live in Ned and my little location thing is misleading in that regard) that generally feeds me 300TDS water. The RO/DI takes it to 0 with no troubles. I have a gusher of a well (10gpm) and all the waste just goes right back into the water table (courtesy about 800 vertical feet of dirt), so my only real cost is the energy to pump the water back up again. And again. And again.

That's weird that your RO/DI would just fizzle out. I wonder what changed? Maybe you had a flow restrictor slowly failing or something? Strange.

Ben

 

["Umm fish?"]

Well, I didn't go through a cost analysis on the units vs. RO/DI, but I do wonder if those who did count the water waste into the equation. But, it does sound to me that your situation is a whole lot different than mine. Nevermind (said in Rosanne Rosanna Danna voice).

 

[jnarowe]

yeah, Steve came by and picked up some corals for his re-start. It was definitely and out-of-character human error. He could have just left it offline while he made water. I was also surprized that he didn't have any water already made up. I keep about 90g of SW made up, aerated, heated and ready to go at all times.

Your idea of having the two 60g reservoirs to make a possible 120g water change sounds good on paper, but the reality is you will not want to add just made SW to your system. Also I find that I don't get the full amount out of my reservoirs so I have to take that into account also.

I use my brine to water my vegetable garden BTW. It's essentially fertilizer.

I also had my RO/DI system "fizzle out" and changed out all filters, membrane, etc. only to still have bad performance. I was going crazy and I am sure it's responsible for some recent instability in my display. What I found out from Marc (melev) was that I actually installed the RO/DI canisters upside down. Ebarrassing to say the least, but my problem is solved and I want to make sure to share that with anyone having a similar problem!

 

[bbrantley]

It's the human errors that I'm most worried about, I'm afraid! I know I'm capable of far worse. However, I learned a lot about it just by reading his analysis.

As for the 60g of freshly mixed, I didn't even know I had to wait? Can't I just aerate for 30 minutes with my pump and call it ready? Hmm...

As for the RO/DI backwards... wow, that sounds like something I wouldn't have thought of, either. I didn't even know those things were directional! Was it the RO itself? The regular sediment filters looked pretty ambidextrous.

Ben

 

[jnarowe]

The refillable DI cartridges actually do have a correct direction, as noted by the arrow on the side. I never noticed them and since both of mine went bad at the same time, I didn't add it up until Marc mentioned it.

As far as waiting for SW to age, what I do is about an 80g water change, then refill the tub with RO/DI, add salt and mix for a few hours. Sometimes I will add a little Prime, as well as test for Ca, Alk, etc. and make any adjustments neccessary. Then I set the mixing pump to come on 4 times per day all the while running a large air stone. This stays that way until the next water change.

I am not saying that's the only way to do it, and of course in an emergency I might add in fresh SW, but I think it is prudent to age the water as a regular course of action.

In Steve's case, we discussed it quite a bit during his visit as he was interested to see how I deal with it. The thing about mine is that I use a 6g bucket to catch skimmate, whereas Steve is using a Deltec with a washdown system, so he has to have it go to a drain. In my case, if all the water is gone from my sumps (which has happened) it does not drain the tank.

I acheive this by using a return manifold mounted above the water line, with an open line going to the fuge (also above the display waterline) to act as a syphon break. The lesson learned here is NEVER leave that line closed! All it takes is a float switch to signal the ACIII Pro to sht down anything related to sump water like the return pump, heaters, Ca reactor pump, etc.

In the case of overskimming, I started using a Weatherson style mechanical shut down, which essentially compressed the foam head stopping the skimmer from producing skimmate. Unfortunately, this did not shut down my Alita 100 and eventually my skimmer exploded. For real, right while I was standing next to it.

The ensuing upgrades were new much larger sumps, and a float switch mounted in my collection bucket. When it gets full, the air pump is electronically shut down. It works really well, and if I am away from home, whomever I have feeding the fish will empty the bucket about every 5 - 7 days. I also have audible alarms as well as email messages when something like that happens.

 

[jtarmitage]

Ben, That is a phenominal tank. Someday I hope to copy it. For now though, I am planning a miniscule 250g tank and that will have to do. I look forward to seeing Bertha in action.

 

[davefan13]

Have you gotten any new pictures lately of the tank being filled? i am anxious to see you with this thing all set up and stocked. Keep us updated!

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10039118#post10039118 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
In my case, if all the water is gone from my sumps (which has happened) it does not drain the tank.

I'm confused, but only because I read this to imply that losing all of your sump water drains Steve's tank. I didn't think losing all sump water would drain ANY tank that was overflow-driven.

I don't understand the rest of the part about the siphon-break and what-not, but I'm a visual person. Maybe some pics?

Ben

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10077643#post10077643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davefan13
Have you gotten any new pictures lately of the tank being filled? i am anxious to see you with this thing all set up and stocked. Keep us updated!

Thanks guys! The tank is half-full, but I had to stop on Friday because my TDS creeped up. On Thursday it was 1 TDS; on Friday it was 14! Basically my DI cartridge was worn out. (And maybe the RO membrane as well.)

I've ordered a new set that will arrive tomorrow, and production will resume then. The water is very murky/brown, which means there will be some serious changes in the weeks to come as we throw out all the crap falling out of the rocks and sand. I'm sure the skimmer will pull some of it out as well, hopefully!

Ben

 

[jnarowe]

Well, Steve had lost water out of his tank when his skimmer over-skimmed. I am sure it has to do with the way his is plumbed, where his sumps and pumps are located, and how the skimmer is fed.

You are correct that in my situation, with an external coast-to-coast overflow, the water cannot drain out of my tank, as long as my siphon break is open and working.

Here's a pic to help explain:

In the pic you se the manifold above the waterline with the right vertical line being the supply from the return pump. Then you see 4 red gate valves which control the flow into the tank, and the line going to the right and up to the refugium.

The fuge line is open (not under water) and provides the siphon break should there be an electrical outage or pump failure. That is essentially what keeps the tank from draining through the return lines.

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10078692#post10078692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
The fuge line is open (not under water) and provides the siphon break should there be an electrical outage or pump failure. That is essentially what keeps the tank from draining through the return lines.

Ah, got it. I had forgotten that a non-broken return line(s) will cause a siphon. All of my tanks have always had open return lines (or nearly open, with a big hole cut in the side of 'em right at the water level).

Thanks Jonathan,

Ben

 

[erics3000]

Wow ..I finally got it too. I have been trying to figure out your plumbing for a while now. I was thinking of using some check valves but that is a hole lot easier. I really wanted to also have a fuge gravity feed my display also. Johnathan can you get some updated pics of your entire setup, what you exactly have in your fuge and your sump. Thanks Johnathan

Ben your tank is coming along nice.. cant wait to see the updates..

 

[jnarowe]

erics3000: I will be trying to get new pics up in the next week or two. You can read about check valves until you are blue in the face, and the general concensus is that they just are not reliable.

I actually do have a swing check valve mounted vertically in the line just after my return pump, but it is a clear PVC valve I use just to visually check the flow. It can tell me if the pump is properly primed or if there is a blockage, but I would not trust it to hold back a lot of water.

The issue is that they get coated with slime, vermatids, etc. and cannot be relied upon for any length of time. IMO anyway!

Regarding the fuge, unless you are building a very large one, you will find it can't really contribute a lot to nutrient export. The growth will cycle as well. I like mine as a protective area where pods & snails can grow, as well as a home for mollies or other mouth brooders, in the idea that their young will feed the display. You need to think that part of your system through carefully. Of course, that tank can be used for a variety of things, but because it is above the display, access is greatly reduced in my case. So, to sum it up, if you truly want it to be a factor in nutrient export, it needs to be very large. HTH...

 

[erics3000]

How about a 55fuge for a 300 display with a 75 sump. Thanks for your input..

 

[jnarowe]

IMO too small for real nutrient export...still fun to do though!