TitusvileSurfer
New member
Well best of luck to you and update us as as information comes in, I am very interested in how this all pans out.
bummer from UPS!!! a bunch of theives!
- Thread starter kvosstra
- Start date
kvosstra
New member
ahuxman - It was signature required - they didnt knock or ring the first day, becuase they were stealing the camera then...When I did get the package the next day, they did knock and delivered the box, but it was damaged and That's when I noticed the camera was not in the box...
It is deffinately UPS's fault, one of their employees, somewhere along the chain either stole the camera or left the truck open long enough for someone else to take it.
The box was obviously insured, I paid the standard rate from B&H - which I can only assume includes insurance, since that would be on them, not on me - that's how it works when you are the consumer and they are a merchant. Now, if were another store, different story - then the UCC applies and they have completed delivery once it is the hands of the shipper.
ok - enough legal talk for the night. I'm sure this will get settled and UPS will realize that it was taken in their possession, but I do fear that they will say that b&H's packaging was insufficient, so that could be another hassle.
Wolverine - I agree - this is between b&H and UPS - not be and both these parties. That's what their insurance is for, as well as UPS's...
It is deffinately UPS's fault, one of their employees, somewhere along the chain either stole the camera or left the truck open long enough for someone else to take it.
The box was obviously insured, I paid the standard rate from B&H - which I can only assume includes insurance, since that would be on them, not on me - that's how it works when you are the consumer and they are a merchant. Now, if were another store, different story - then the UCC applies and they have completed delivery once it is the hands of the shipper.
ok - enough legal talk for the night. I'm sure this will get settled and UPS will realize that it was taken in their possession, but I do fear that they will say that b&H's packaging was insufficient, so that could be another hassle.
Wolverine - I agree - this is between b&H and UPS - not be and both these parties. That's what their insurance is for, as well as UPS's...
Did you sign for it when they made the second delivery? If so, that could be a complication. UPS might be argue that by accepting the package, it was out of their control when you opened it and they can't be sure that you didn't take the camera out before calling them. I'm not doubting you, just pointing out that the situation may not be clear cut. In general, if the package is damaged or there are other suspicious issues (like a very light weight), it would be better to decline delivery and pick it up at the UPS depot where someone from UPS can monitor you as the package is opened and will be able to verify the state of the item.
This type of issue has come on a couple of other forums recently. One person bought a D90 from a major chain store (not mail order but brick and mortar). When he got home, the package contained a D50 which someone had stuck a D90 label on. The after-the-fact advice was to open the package in the store before you leave, or to have the sales clerk open package before you buy it (both of which are not always feasible).
This type of issue has come on a couple of other forums recently. One person bought a D90 from a major chain store (not mail order but brick and mortar). When he got home, the package contained a D50 which someone had stuck a D90 label on. The after-the-fact advice was to open the package in the store before you leave, or to have the sales clerk open package before you buy it (both of which are not always feasible).
melev
Well-known member
You stated: <i>which I can only assume includes insurance,</i>
Uh oh.
If you order something expensive, it is best to always state that you want it shipped with insurance. I ship quite a bit of stuff, and do insure the more valuable items but the one thing you must never do is assume. It only takes a few seconds to ask if they will insure it, which is how you can decide if you feel covered or not.
Uh oh.
If you order something expensive, it is best to always state that you want it shipped with insurance. I ship quite a bit of stuff, and do insure the more valuable items but the one thing you must never do is assume. It only takes a few seconds to ask if they will insure it, which is how you can decide if you feel covered or not.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
That makes no sense when looked at from a logical or realistic standpoint
Why would they bother to stop and leave a note and then deliver an empty box the next day. If it was the driver, he could have stolen the camera and still delivered the empty box. Why would he spend (2) days doing something that takes (2) minutes. Why would he take the risk of inserting himself further into an odd situation. Many times a UPS driver will drop a NDR (non delivery receipt) on a door when there is a "signature" required item instead of ringing the doorbell. Why? because they are in a hurry and don't feel like waiting for a signature that day. It happens more than you would think. The driver will fill out the NDRs before he ever gets to your house, he can "skip" a whole street or part of the route that way. When you look at the tracking website his *** is covered because of the NDR.
So the NDR and the theft are almost certainly a coincidence.
Most likely yes.
I am sure B&H follows the UPS packaging guidelines. Why? So that they don't get stuffed on claims every day. They ship hundreds of thousands of items a month and can not afford to be flagged by UPS (or any carrier) for sub-standard packaging.
I understand your frustration, but much of it appears to be pointed in the wrong direction. Frustration in these situations often leads to cloudy judgements about what took place.
As for the vendor not sending out a new camera, I fully understand. Without acknowledgement from UPS that the claim is valid, they would be stuck with the replacement cost. They have to come to a level of confidence that YOU did not pull a scam and that UPS will honor the claim. Fraudulent shipping claims are one of the largest scams going right now. Literally millions of dollars a month are in play for UPS and other shippers. They have now way of easily trusting you compared to the last scam they got taken on.
IPT
Active member
Didn't read the whole thread - but if you paid with CC there may be some recourse. Often the CC will provide insurance for these types of things. If nothing else, you can dispute the charge saying you never recieved the product (which is true). B&H will be unhappy, because they won't get paid, but you'll get creditied your money (most likely).
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juniormc8704
New member
how about making a home owners insurance claim.
After you signed for it, it became your property.
So if it was stolen from your home (or in front of it)
it would be a matter of hoe owners insurance.
Most deductables are very small for theft. mine is only 50 or 100.
Might want to look into that if UPS tells you to take a hike.
After you signed for it, it became your property.
So if it was stolen from your home (or in front of it)
it would be a matter of hoe owners insurance.
Most deductables are very small for theft. mine is only 50 or 100.
Might want to look into that if UPS tells you to take a hike.
LuisC
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13892597#post13892597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
That makes no sense when looked at from a logical or realistic standpoint
Why would they bother to stop and leave a note and then deliver an empty box the next day. If it was the driver, he could have stolen the camera and still delivered the empty box. Why would he spend (2) days doing something that takes (2) minutes. Why would he take the risk of inserting himself further into an odd situation. Many times a UPS driver will drop a NDR (non delivery receipt) on a door when there is a "signature" required item instead of ringing the doorbell. Why? because they are in a hurry and don't feel like waiting for a signature that day. It happens more than you would think. The driver will fill out the NDRs before he ever gets to your house, he can "skip" a whole street or part of the route that way. When you look at the tracking website his *** is covered because of the NDR.
So the NDR and the theft are almost certainly a coincidence.
Most likely yes.
I am sure B&H follows the UPS packaging guidelines. Why? So that they don't get stuffed on claims every day. They ship hundreds of thousands of items a month and can not afford to be flagged by UPS (or any carrier) for sub-standard packaging.
I understand your frustration, but much of it appears to be pointed in the wrong direction. Frustration in these situations often leads to cloudy judgements about what took place.
As for the vendor not sending out a new camera, I fully understand. Without acknowledgement from UPS that the claim is valid, they would be stuck with the replacement cost. They have to come to a level of confidence that YOU did not pull a scam and that UPS will honor the claim. Fraudulent shipping claims are one of the largest scams going right now. Literally millions of dollars a month are in play for UPS and other shippers. They have now way of easily trusting you compared to the last scam they got taken on.
WOW well said Bean :smokin: ........
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Andy, the buyer signed for the package and the seller has no way of knowing if he is telling the truth. The law is on the side of both the seller and the shipper in this case. The package was signed for.
As I stated above, UPS, DHL, the USPS and a dozen others carriers are fleeced for millions of dollars in fraudulant claims every month. If B&H (or any company) just shipped out a new $1000 widget every time somebody filed a claim, they would go broke or their prices would not be competative.
As I stated above, UPS, DHL, the USPS and a dozen others carriers are fleeced for millions of dollars in fraudulant claims every month. If B&H (or any company) just shipped out a new $1000 widget every time somebody filed a claim, they would go broke or their prices would not be competative.
andycook
Shai Dorsai!
I saw that it was signed for but one of the posts suggested it was just the card for the missed delivery.
So now the discussion is what exactly is implied by signing for the box. Does the signature cover delivery, delivery of the box, delivery of the box and contents, delivery of the box and contents in working order. (this last part is mostly joking)
So now the discussion is what exactly is implied by signing for the box. Does the signature cover delivery, delivery of the box, delivery of the box and contents, delivery of the box and contents in working order. (this last part is mostly joking)
kvosstra
New member
Ill update -
Interestingly, the package was redelivered (after it went through claims) on Dec. 5, and was apparently signed for by me! at 3:30 in the afternoon. I find this extremely strange, since I dont get home until after 6:00 and I neither signed for, not do I have the package.
Secondly, UPS says that it gave its report to B&H, yet when I contacted them, they said that the person handling my case was out of the office (this was before 5:00 PM EST). It just seems like poor service to me.
I will talk to the B&H manager tomorrow and hope that this person has information for me. If they still claim to not have any information, I will unfortunately have to call VISA and have the charges reversed. I hate to do that to a good business, but this has been pretty bad service to this point, IMHO.
Interestingly, the package was redelivered (after it went through claims) on Dec. 5, and was apparently signed for by me! at 3:30 in the afternoon. I find this extremely strange, since I dont get home until after 6:00 and I neither signed for, not do I have the package.
Secondly, UPS says that it gave its report to B&H, yet when I contacted them, they said that the person handling my case was out of the office (this was before 5:00 PM EST). It just seems like poor service to me.
I will talk to the B&H manager tomorrow and hope that this person has information for me. If they still claim to not have any information, I will unfortunately have to call VISA and have the charges reversed. I hate to do that to a good business, but this has been pretty bad service to this point, IMHO.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
No, that is not what the law says... It is a bit (a lot) more complicated than that. There are different types of shipping and implied or specified liability and terms.
With all due respect, you signed for the package. You accepted ownership of the package (no matter what was in it) and could have by law (should have) checked before you signed. You took the seller and UPS off the hook at least until further investigation is done.
I think most of us understand your frustration in this situation, but very few of the posts in this thread have been accurate with regard to the liability or the law.
You sound like an honest person who just wants what he paid for. Sadly, there are hundreds of thousands of dishonest people that have forced this sitation to be a pain in the ***. Your photos of the damaged, unopened box will go a long way to getting you what you paid for. It will just take some time for UPS to process the claim.
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