Burnt tips ... low nutrients ... Need advice on how to proceed

[platax88]

Hello, most of my sps colonies have been suffering from burnt tips and then the tips get a dusting of brown (diatoms?)

My alk/ca/mg is and always has been very stable so I know is not from alk swings. I recently went out of town and the feedings were drastically reduced. My nutrients dropped drastically and I think very sudden so I believe this to be the cause. My caps are all very pale/gray too.

How do you advice me bringing nutrients back up and should i clip the tips?

 

[Logzor]

Where was your dkh sitting when the burn tips occurred? ULNS typically require low (near sea water level) alkalinity or burnt tips will occur. Definitely consult anyone who runs a zeovit system. It sounds like your system suffered from this phenomenon.

Increase your feeding or turn off your skimmer temporarily. Dosing amino acids may help, too.

I would chop off the dead tips of your corals which are now being inhabited by algae. The coral will probably have a difficult time growing over the algae. You may want to wait until the corals are more health as the chopping may stress them further.

Next time you leave town it may be better to turn your skimmer off.

 

[platax88]

My Alk was/is 9.5 - 10 dkh. Do you think I should let it drop while I get nutrients back up?

 

[rmalone]

Your alk is way too high if you have low nutrients. Get it between 7 and 8dkh. Most ULNS guys shoot for 7.5.

 

[platax88]

dont believe I am at ULN:

NO3 = .02 (salifert)
PH4 = .03 (Hanna Checker)

My levels before where:

N03 = 5-10
PH4 = .06

If my plan is to raise nutrients should I still lower alk? I guess I can just stop my alk dosing pump and let levels drop by consumption.

 

[Logzor]

With detectable nitrates/phosphates I don't think your dkh was too high. I typically run my systems in the 9-10 range and I always test at 0 nitrates (API) and 0 phosphates (new hanna checker).

I would go through the entire gamut and double check all of your parameter (with another brand of test kit perhaps). How are you checking your salinity?

 

[platax88]

With detectable nitrates/phosphates I don't think your dkh was too high. I typically run my systems in the 9-10 range and I always test at 0 nitrates (API) and 0 phosphates (new hanna checker).

I would go through the entire gamut and double check all of your parameter (with another brand of test kit perhaps). How are you checking your salinity?

I've checked and double checked params ... I am testing salinity with a refractrometer which checks out using calibration solution. Here are my params:

Alk: 9.5-10
Cal: 425
Mg: 1280 (maybe a tad low here)
No3: .02
Ph4: .03
Sg: 1.026
Ph: 8.0 - 8.15 (Apex)
Temp: 80 - 80.5 (Apex)

I was also trying out the WM EcoBak pellets for a few months and pulled them in case they were the cause. They have been out for 3 weeks and my corals just keep getting worse.

I have noticed that when I feed my fish all my acros go crazy with long feeding tentacles, almost like they are starving and reaching out for any food they can. I have never seen this before. PE is pretty crappy also.

I just bought a buckt of salt and was planning on a series of large water changes in case there is any pollutant. What do you think about that?

Thanks everyone for your help thus far
Thanks all for your help.

 

[Logzor]

Well thats a tough call because all of your parameters check out pretty well. I'm afraid of suggesting anything for fear that it will make the situation worse. May I ask what alkalinity test kit you are using?

As you said, if you can't figure out what's wrong, do water changes. Or, run carbon.

 

[platax88]

I am using the hanna checker with the ugrade kit (update with liquid reagent) cross-checked with elos and I'm sure is accurate.

What do you think of the sudden change in nutrients? Could that be the cause.

I am also up for changing my t5 bulbs (1 year this month) but I am afraid of doing that until they look healthier.

My plan of attack is large water changes, and high feedings to hopefully bring up N03. My reef has been growing and stable for so long. I have many large colonies so this hurts

 

[Kolognekoral]

This sounds like alk burn and, as I see it, yours is way too high. Between 7-8kh is best. The mag is a bit low, but that shouldn't cause tip burn.

I think what has happened, when you went away, with the sudden drop in nutrients, your alk caused tip burn. This will happen often when the PO4 level is under 0.05. ULNS starts at this nutrient level. Nitrates are less problematic, but a sudden spike in NO3 will, also, burn tips.

There is no good reason to keep the alk higher than NSW levels. The corals DO NOT grow faster and the higher carbonate level can catalyse various reactions that push the tank in an unhealthy direction. Other than the chemistry being off wack, some nutrients can be bound through higher alk and later released via a pH drop or alk drop. As you know, stability is one of the most important factors.

 

[platax88]

This sounds like alk burn and, as I see it, yours is way too high. Between 7-8kh is best. The mag is a bit low, but that shouldn't cause tip burn.

I think what has happened, when you went away, with the sudden drop in nutrients, your alk caused tip burn. This will happen often when the PO4 level is under 0.05. ULNS starts at this nutrient level. Nitrates are less problematic, but a sudden spike in NO3 will, also, burn tips.

There is no good reason to keep the alk higher than NSW levels. The corals DO NOT grow faster and the higher carbonate level can catalyse various reactions that push the tank in an unhealthy direction. Other than the chemistry being off wack, some nutrients can be bound through higher alk and later released via a pH drop or alk drop. As you know, stability is one of the most important factors.

Thanks, this seems to be a logical explanation.... So, what would you do at this point? Should I let the alk drop or take skimmer/gfo offline? The recession continues everyday.

Would you suggest the water changes as I planned?

 

[Kolognekoral]

Jack,

I would take the reactor off line and test the PO4 every day, not letting it go over 0.09, while letting the alk drop on its own. I don't think a water change will make a difference at this point, unless you haven't done one in a while. I do 5% weekly to keep replenishing trace elements. A small change won't hurt, in any case, just not more than 10%.

A question on the PO4 kit, are you reading the PO4 amount or the P amount? 0.03mgl P equals 0.09mgl PO4. Some kits give both readings, while others only the converted PO4, which is what one typically monitors.

What kind of filtering/nutrient reduction are you using? Do you run carbon and how much?

 

[platax88]

Thanks Jaime...

I use the Hanna phosphate checker which is ppm resolution. I have an auto water changer that changes about 1.5gal/day. I run a MSX 250 skimmer, It's a barebottom system with lots of flow (vortechs, tunzes). I run carbon and GFO in small quantities and change them every 2-3 weeks. I ususally run a filter sock but did not while i was away and the nutrients dropped.

 

[Kolognekoral]

OK, then the PO4 is that low. A good thing. Otherwise your system seems to be running well. Actually, you would be a good candidate for one of the ULNS systems (Ultra-Zeo-Prodobio, etc.) I have found this the best method for sps and you don't use GFO, which is terribly expensive in Europe. Maybe something to consider. Do you keep a lot of fish?

 

[platax88]

actually, i think i rather be in the 5ppm no3, .03 ph4 range thats were i had the nicest colors.

So, here's something weird. I just checked my alk and it has gone up to 12dkh now!!! ***, my dosing pumps have kept alk stable until now. Could it be because, since the corals are hurting they are not calcifying and therefore consumption is much lower. I disconnected the dosing pump, but it may take a while to lower alk to 8ish if the consumption rate has dropped a lot

I don't know what to do... i hope I dont loose everything. It all looks like crap

 

[Kolognekoral]

Be patient. I say this, as I recently came close to crashing my system via a bottle of ammonia, that fell into the tank water. I had a massive jump in NO3, but the tank recovered relatively quickly, much to my surprise. Yes, burnt tips on some, but the corals recovered and I only lost one, which was always a bit unhappy. My calcium/alk supplement level had to be adjusted, as the corals did not use nearly as much. After a couple of weeks, they were getting back into the swing of things and I raised the level back.

If your happy with your system, stay with it. I manage to maintain colour via AA supplements, amongst a few other things, and I don't like my corals too dark.

 

[platax88]

Thanks again, you have been very helpful. Do you think i should do large water changes since the makeup water has lower alkalinity? This may drive it down a bit quicker than just turning off the dosing pump.

 

[rigleautomotive]

actually, i think i rather be in the 5ppm no3, .03 ph4 range thats were i had the nicest colors.

So, here's something weird. I just checked my alk and it has gone up to 12dkh now!!! ***, my dosing pumps have kept alk stable until now. Could it be because, since the corals are hurting they are not calcifying and therefore consumption is much lower. I disconnected the dosing pump, but it may take a while to lower alk to 8ish if the consumption rate has dropped a lot

I don't know what to do... i hope I dont loose everything. It all looks like crap

Yes on the alk demand going away when your sps are stressed and not growing.When they are adding mass daily they consume a great deal of carbonates,when dormant not so much.Same with corraline,if it stops your demands will decrease greatly.This causes shifts even if dosing remains constant

My advise is to go back to basics.remove any GFO,Bio pellets,carbon dosing etc and do weekly water changes with normal feedings.Alk in the 9 range will be fine as long as you stay away from excessive nutrient control.The accuracy of your meter is .03 i believe + or - which can mean you have dead zero phosphates.marine life does not do well with no phosphates IMO.Things will come back to normal.Test alk daily and see what your new demands if any are and adjust accordingly but most important,do nothing other then the basics to control nutrients.

 

[platax88]

Yes on the alk demand going away when your sps are stressed and not growing.When they are adding mass daily they consume a great deal of carbonates,when dormant not so much.Same with corraline,if it stops your demands will decrease greatly.This causes shifts even if dosing remains constant

My advise is to go back to basics.remove any GFO,Bio pellets,carbon dosing etc and do weekly water changes with normal feedings.Alk in the 9 range will be fine as long as you stay away from excessive nutrient control.The accuracy of your meter is .03 i believe + or - which can mean you have dead zero phosphates.marine life does not do well with no phosphates IMO.Things will come back to normal.Test alk daily and see what your new demands if any are and adjust accordingly but most important,do nothing other then the basics to control nutrients.

Thanks... but how do you suggest i lower alk down to 8-9 from 12 if there is no consumption right now?

 

[rigleautomotive]

Well the water changes will do that and there will be a small amount of consumption even when sps are dormant.Algaes consume calcium and carbonates so the level will drop.Only concern I have is if you are using a unusually high alk salt mix .Then the water changes would be counter productive.RC would not be one I would recommend with its history of high alk .As long as you r using a salt mix that has a lower mixed alk then you are at you will gently lower your alk.I have been where you are at several times while experimenting with pro biotics and low nutrient s in the last several years.