Calcium addition - head spinning

[DrBoxedWine]

Hi everyone,

My tank has been up and running since august, and i've been adding baking soda via my Tunze ATO to keep alkalinity up. I just got a calcium test and saw my calcium is around 300. I'd like to get this up, but my head starts to spin when i look at different options. The only thing I've gathered so far is that i need to probably stop with the baking soda method. My Ak is stable around 10 using this method. I have a 75g mixed reef with a 30g sump.

Cost isn't a huge issue, but i'd like to keep this cheap if possible (IE, i don't really want to do a reactor, but if this is really the much easier way, then i'd consider it). It looks like Kalkwasser is a good option, but you just have to be careful. The 2 part additives seem like they're safer, but more costly. I'm wondering what everyone else uses, and if you guys have any suggestions for a relative beginner (I had 2 cichlid tanks for 2 years, but this is my first venture in a saltwater).

So, what do you guys out there do? Any suggestions i could try or things i need to be looking for?

 

[danil]

It's commonly discussed subject. Most common options are two parts (aka Recipe #1) and Kalk in ATO. Last one is being cheapest among these two. What you've been doing is not right. Most likely you've misread instruction and confused it with Kalk dosing. Only Kalk can be dose via ATO since two part dosing requires well... two parts and they don't mix together in one container (they will precipitate). So in your case I would keep dosing through ATO but using proper additive - Kalk. Read about it in details and you'll be fine.

 

[Mcgeezer]

Dosing baking soda or calcium carbonate in your ATO won't keep up with demand, only kalkwasser will do that.

I suggest dosing a bottled two part solution as a starting point of truly understanding how to maintain your calcium and alkalinity. This makes you manually dose daily and truly understand your tanks needs.

Once you have a grasp on it, then start using kalkwasser in your ATO. Kalkwasser maintains levels and is pretty much set it and forget it. Just make sure you are very careful with kalk because if overdosed it can be dangerous.

Your calcium is way too low to support corals. The two part solution will raise it within 2-3 days.

Before you even consider kalkwasser, your levels need to be at the proper starting point.


One large piece that a lot of people forget is magnesium. If your magnesium levels aren't correct...your Ca and Dkh will always be all over the place. Magnesium bonds the two properly and ensures that they are utilized efficiently. Read some of randy Holmes farley's stuff online. The guy is a chemist and a genius with reef tanks.


Get a Mg test and dose it as needed. Magnesium typically gets replenished with most water changes until your tank demand raises as you add more stuff.

 

[gbru316]

Cheap 2 part uses ice melt for the calcium component and baking soda (either baked or unbaked) for the alk component. You'll be hard pressed to find a cheaper solution to maintaining water chemistry (and epsom salts/ magnesium chloride hexahydrate for the mag component).

It's called 2 part because the additives are made so that the concentration is roughly equal to the usage of calcifying organisms.

This should help: An improved Do-it-yourself 2 part calcium and alkalinity supplement

Here's my method: Test alkalinity once, and again a week later. Then go here: Reef chemistry calculator, and enter your numbers. Use your first test value as your target and your second test value as your current value. Select the appropriate supplement (Randy's 2 part is an option) and it'll tell you how much you need. Divide this number by 7 to get your daily maintenance dose.

Keep in mind that you need to dose BOTH parts of the 2 part recipe for it to work as intended. And make sure you keep your magnesium in an acceptable range as well as it "fixes" the Ca and Alk.

 

[disc1]

Dosing baking soda or calcium carbonate in your ATO won't keep up with demand, only kalkwasser will do that.

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. It will keep up with alkalinity in any aquarium, you can make it quite concentrated. But it doesn't add calcium at all. Kalk doesn't always keep up with demand, but is balanced and adds calcium and alkalinity at the same rate.

If you like baking soda for alkalinity, then the easiest answer is to start dosing calcium chloride for calcium. You can get it cheap bulk from BRS or some people even use driveway de-icer.

 

[DrBoxedWine]

I've got a good grip on how much baking soda to use to keep ak steady, so if I just also start doing calcium chloride as well that will do as good of a job as kalkwaseer? It seems like kalkwaseer is sort of a messy deal too, I love how clean and easy baking soda is.

Thanks everyone so much, things are much more clear now, I'll get a mag test soon.

 

[JammyBirch]

not to hijack this but i have a question, how does regular water changes effect your dosing?

If you dose a 2 part, today and do a water change tomorrow won't you be taking the 2 part out and lowering levels to some degree?

I have a small system so a 20% water change is what happens everyother week.

Anyway good info here...thanks.

 

[gbru316]

I've got a good grip on how much baking soda to use to keep ak steady, so if I just also start doing calcium chloride as well that will do as good of a job as kalkwaseer?

Yes

 

[kurt_n]

I've got a good grip on how much baking soda to use to keep ak steady, so if I just also start doing calcium chloride as well that will do as good of a job as kalkwaseer? It seems like kalkwaseer is sort of a messy deal too, I love how clean and easy baking soda is.

Thanks everyone so much, things are much more clear now, I'll get a mag test soon.

Yes... dosing calcium chloride will take care of the calcium part. Basically, by dosing baking soda, you're just dosing 1-part of a 2-part system. If you dosed calcium chloride, you'll have the 2nd part. And yes... check your magnesium levels. Most commercial 2-parts have a magnesium component in them also, so it keeps everything in balance.

One thing I'm curious about though, and maybe it was mentioned and I missed it... but what is your alkalilnity reading? And what are the calcium levels in your new salt water? It just seems like if you've been dosing baking soda all this time, with no addition of calcium, your cal/alk balance is probably way out of whack. Might want to give this article a read: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

[tmz]

It can be confusing. This brief thread of mine attempts to provide a brief overview might be of help sorting it out for starters:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2447251&highlight=carbonate



There area series of very informative articles by Randy Farley on two part dosing and limewater dosing as well as a calculator for figuring dosing amounts in the sticky at the top of teh Reef Chemistry forum:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

For now I'd add calcium chloride to get the system up to 400ppm calcium and hold off on the carbonate alkailinty dose. Bring the levels to 7 to 11kh and 400 to 450ppm calcium, Then you can choose an ongoing method for providing calcium and alkainity based on the demand of your system.

 

[DrBoxedWine]

Yes... dosing calcium chloride will take care of the calcium part. Basically, by dosing baking soda, you're just dosing 1-part of a 2-part system. If you dosed calcium chloride, you'll have the 2nd part. And yes... check your magnesium levels. Most commercial 2-parts have a magnesium component in them also, so it keeps everything in balance.

One thing I'm curious about though, and maybe it was mentioned and I missed it... but what is your alkalilnity reading? And what are the calcium levels in your new salt water? It just seems like if you've been dosing baking soda all this time, with no addition of calcium, your cal/alk balance is probably way out of whack. Might want to give this article a read: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

Thanks! Yeah i've been through that article, i'm in Zone 3. My Ak reading is about 10, and my PH is about 8. Randy is the man no doubt. Sometimes his articles can be overwhelming for a guy who barely paid attention in high school chemistry (although this stuff is kinda interesting, young me was just a doof, lol), but he seems to be the gold standard for making things very clear.

So i'm thinking of ordering some Kent Turbo Calcium. If i continue to dose baking soda through topoff water, then i could just use a dosing pump for calcium additions, correct? I'd like to order just 1 pump. Do i really need a dosing pump? Or is this something i'll have to do every day and will be a huge pain?

The good news is i believe i'm getting an APEX in a couple weeks, so keeping an eye on the PH should be easier.

 

[gbru316]

Ignore pH. Alk and Ca are more important. If you keep alk and ca in line, your pH should be fine.

Most people either manually dose every day or use dosing pumps. I dose manually twice a day until I get around to building my dosing pumps.

If it were me, I'd buy dosing pumps before an apex.

 

[DrBoxedWine]

Ignore pH. Alk and Ca are more important. If you keep alk and ca in line, your pH should be fine.

Most people either manually dose every day or use dosing pumps. I dose manually twice a day until I get around to building my dosing pumps.

If it were me, I'd buy dosing pumps before an apex.

thanks for the advice. i might be able to do both the apex and a single BRS dosing pump. There shouldn't be an issue adding baking soda to the ATO water and dosing through that, right?

 

[gbru316]

You generally don't want to dose ca and alk at the same time. It can increase precipitation. It's usually best to staghrt the doses by 30 mins or so. The reason I recommend the dosers over the apex is because dosers will immediately reduce the daily maintenance of your tank. An apex won't.

Also, your evap rate isn't constant day to day. So you'd never be providing the same amount of calcium 2 days in a row.

 

[kurt_n]

I manually dosed for about 5 years. No big deal and it's about as simple and cheap as you can get! First thing in the morning before the lights come on, dribble in your alk dose in a high flow area over about 30 seconds. Wait 30 seconds. Then dribble in your cal dose.

When you get your Apex, you'll see your pH rise dramatically for about 15-30 minutes after you dose, but it'll return to normal pretty quick - assuming your dosage amounts aren't too much to do in one shot. When that gets to be the case (dosing too much in one shot), then you want to think about a dosing pump.

 

[DrBoxedWine]

Ahh yes, that's true. I'd be dosing the baking soda through the ATO, since it completely dissolves so nicely and leaves behind little residue. But that's true about the evaporation rate, good point. Assuming i'm able to make this work (Colorado winters are consistent... Dry dry dry), i'd be dosing through my sump, and i could do it in different parts. I'd imagine that if there's 500 gph flowing through the sump, it'd clear it all out pretty fast?

Yeah i hear ya about the dosers. Basically, the Apex is going to be a gift.

Thanks for the all help here, this has definitely been very helpful.