Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304021#post10304021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy

Also, why has no one mentioned a Ca reactor without a pressurized CO2 bottle? No one is running one using muriatic acid fed by a peristaltic pump and a pH controller?

To mention a few:

a) CO2 is part of the reactions that form part of the carbonate system so it becomes and integral part of the process:

CO2 + Water > Carbonic Acid > Bicarbonate > Carbonate

b) Muriatic acid will not balance out the reactions because of the Chlorine portion, in other words, Calcium Carbonate + Muriatic Acid will form Calcium Chloride, CO2 and water and the Calcium Chloride will ionize to form Calcium and Chloride ions. Simply said such a reaction will add Calcium and Chloride not Calcium and Carbonates thus will be missing the alkalinity part.

c) Commercial Muriatic acid contains too many impurities.

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304150#post10304150 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
To mention a few:

One more... how would you measure the rate of acid introduced into the reactor? With CO2, you have a bubble counter.

Although it does beg the theoretical question about possibly using distilled vinegar, which is food safe (obviously) and could possibly be used.

Then, all we'd need are some spices, herbs and sautee lightly, serve on a bed of rice. :rolleye1:

 

[Siffy]

Why do you NEED a bubble counter? As your Ca reactor should be monitored and controlled via the pH, it's just another thing to watch and add to the "cool factor".

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304075#post10304075 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
1) Then let's play by the same rules and compare noncommercial reactor media, purchased in bulk discount, obtained from a local source, too, no? The apples-to-oranges thing is misleading.

2) Or, I just don't want to mix 2 part every week. I don't have to worry about my reactor for months, if not bumping up on a year from now. If all I use is a 1 gallon jug, I'd be mixing this stuff on a consistent basis.

I hear you on the 72 bow space...I had to wedge a 20L under mine. UGH.

1) Because noncommercial bulk reactor media isnt available. For those of us in about 30 states, driveway de-icer and baking soda are.

2) A gallon will raise the tank DKH by over 40 (80 gallons). Unless you're dropping 6dkh a day, you wont go through a gallon a week. Even 2 dkh a day is on the high side, but reasonable, and that, its almost a month.

 

[dogmatix]

Also dont forget that adding kalkwasser when using a Ca reactor can increase you Carbonates, as the free CO2 binds with the OH (hydoxide). Something i didnt know to keep an eye for untill a year ago.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304302#post10304302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
One more... how would you measure the rate of acid introduced into the reactor? With CO2, you have a bubble counter.

That is not a problem, a variable rate doser pump will do. The real issue is that the chimistry is not there to produce what we will be looking for.

Winegar is too weak of an acid so large amounts would be needed and bacterial blooms will be certain given the amount of acetates added which feeds the bacteria.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304470#post10304470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
Why do you NEED a bubble counter? As your Ca reactor should be monitored and controlled via the pH, it's just another thing to watch and add to the "cool factor".

Besides being cool to watch ... and boring after a while A bubble counter is a good quick reference.
Because the PH takes some time to stabilize after making adjustments the only immediate response to changes in addition will be the bubble counter. In addition if the set point changes you can easily return it to the original by using the bubblecounteras a reference of the original amount rather than set it again by trial and error.

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10307922#post10307922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
That is not a problem, a variable rate doser pump will do. The real issue is that the chimistry is not there to produce what we will be looking for.

Winegar is too weak of an acid so large amounts would be needed and bacterial blooms will be certain given the amount of acetates added which feeds the bacteria.

Oh, don't get me wrong... I wasn't actually taking the idea seriously.

 

[davidryder]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304075#post10304075 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
1) Then let's play by the same rules and compare noncommercial reactor media, obtained from a local source, too, no? The apples-to-oranges thing is misleading.

2) Or, I just don't want to mix 2 part every week. I don't have to worry about my reactor for months, if not bumping up on a year from now. If all I use is a 1 gallon jug, I'm mixing this stuff on a consistent basis.

Have you seen the room (or lack thereof) under a 72 bowfront? I just can't fit a sump, return, skimmer and two 1-gallon jugs and peristaltic pump under there. But, I can fit a reactor in the stand, and a CO2 bottle in the 6" of room between the stand and the wall. :rollface:

Hey I think it could be said that in the case of someone having a very high Ca and Alk demand then a Ca Rx would be ideal - given you can afford one, or want to afford one.

If not, then a cheap solution would be to make a 2-part dosing system. It is much easier (and much cheaper) to DIY a 2-part doser than a Ca Rx. If I had the money and will and I had to choose between 2-part and a Ca Rx I would probably choose a Ca Rx. For now though, limewater works just fine - as it would probably any non-sps dominated tank.

After reading everything I have read (and no offense, but this thread hasn't provided much definitive information) I have determined that a Ca Rx is overall cheaper, as seen in the table below (thanks to Randy Holmes-Farley)

Reading the entire article would show you where those figures come from.

 

[jdieck]

Re: Calculating your cost

Re: Calculating your cost

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10105024#post10105024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
I see some posts trying to compare costs, for a proper comparison the initial setup cost shall be tied with the on going operational cost and media consumption.
I will suggest the following to approximate a cost comparison:

a) Determine your setup cost (do not forget to add shipping and handling)
b) Assuming your setup shall last at least five years determine the annual cost dividing a above by five
c) determine your alkalinity consumption
d) Use the chart below as a guideline to determine the annual ongoing cost of your supplementation system. (Calcium reactor include CO2 and Power) Please note that the costs in the chart are for a 120 gal system. For your system calculation divide the cost in the chart by 120 and multiply it by the total volume in your system.
e) Add the ongoing annual cost to the initial setup cost and compare.
f) Add to the equation whatever your feelings are regarding convenience, risk and such and make your move and enjoy your new toys!

 

[Rovert]

Re: Re: Calculating your cost

Re: Re: Calculating your cost

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10309986#post10309986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Originally posted by jdieck
I see some posts trying to compare costs, for a proper comparison the initial setup cost shall be tied with the on going operational cost and media consumption.
I will suggest the following to approximate a cost comparison:

The difficulty I had with this graph is that it's more or less an 'eye chart'. It's hard to see the differences in some of the colors, and not all media types are listed. Otherwise, I take it for granted the metrics are spot-on, but it was just hard to figure.

I wonder if it'd be possible to make up a web-based spreadsheet for those who are trying to make up their minds.

It would calculate the costs both short-term and over a 5 year period, and also present a side-by-side chart of the qualitative pros/cons of each system.

Inputs would be:
Media type (Rx and 2part)
Media cost (Rx and 2part)
Shipping
$/Kilowatt hour
Cost for accelerated RO/DI media use (for the 2 part)
Reactor cost (selectable for basic, or advanced w/pH probe)
2-part equipment cost (selectable for the complexity of setup, i.e. litermeter, dosing pump, or just plain old drip)
CO2 cost
Tank Alk/Ca demand (in PPM, or if in DKH, have it convert)
Tank size

The spreadsheet would automatically plot the results over time, based on your particular costs based on area of the country for shipping, electricity and particular tank demands. IOW, it takes all the variables and incorporates them to present a graph and table of costs over your suggested 5 year timeframe.

It seems the calculations are already in a spreadsheet form somewhere, but just not easily interpreted or accessible.

Just a thought.

 

[NanoCube-boy]

davidryder, So it's okay to top of with lime water? Does it upset the balance of calcium and alkalinity?

 

[Siffy]

This may seem like a basic question, but I don't know and haven't seen it mentioned so I have to ask.

With a Calcium reactor, are both Ca and Alk levels kept perfectly in check when the reactor is running well or do you still have to dose for one or the other? Once, occasionally?

 

[yossarian]

I have been hand-dosing for a long time with Kent's Liquid Reactor, and, due to the PITA factor, I started shopping for a Ca Rx.

Then I noticed the Kalkwasser stirrer-dosers made by Deltec and AquaMedic. So, this is what I was thinking:

Stirrer stirs Liquid Reactor (or two-part dose) 24/7.

You can control the output of the stirrer with a ph Controller, by either turning the pump on and off, or using a solenoid to divert input water to the stirrer during water top-off's.

Cost of stirrer: $200-600, depending upon size.

Cost of ph Controller - $200.

+ media

If ph isn't enough to control Calc levels, then will have to convert to a drip system, which should be easy enough via a $5 valve.

Is this plain stupid?

 

[davidryder]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10311182#post10311182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoCube-boy
davidryder, So it's okay to top of with lime water? Does it upset the balance of calcium and alkalinity?

Yeah limewater (kalkwasser) is a balanced method of supplementation.

More can be read here:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

If you have a high ca demand you can dissolve the lime in vinegar, detailed here:

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

 

[Siffy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10311484#post10311484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yossarian
Cost of stirrer: $200-600, depending upon size.

Cost of ph Controller - $200.

+ media

If ph isn't enough to control Calc levels, then will have to convert to a drip system, which should be easy enough via a $5 valve.

Is this plain stupid?

Due to the cost, I'd consider a DIY alternative since stirrers are relatively easy to build. All you need is a sealed storage container and a reliable powerhead to turn on occasionally.

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10311251#post10311251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
This may seem like a basic question, but I don't know and haven't seen it mentioned so I have to ask.

With a Calcium reactor, are both Ca and Alk levels kept perfectly in check when the reactor is running well or do you still have to dose for one or the other? Once, occasionally?

Yes, that's exactly the point. If you use a Rx, it provides both alkalinity and calcium in their respective proportions out of one device. Granted, there's some possible variation depending on the media type and brand used, but it's still within an accepted range of proportion. So, no, additional dosing is not necessary.

Be careful with automating kalk units. That's pretty nasty stuff that will aggregate on impellers and pumps, clog tubes and encrust just about anything. For my preferences, I'd go either 2 part or CaRx, but kalkwasser units make me nervous.

Also, because I never looked into this option, I don't know if it supplies balanced Ca and Alk, so it may not be a sole solution.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10311251#post10311251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
This may seem like a basic question, but I don't know and haven't seen it mentioned so I have to ask.

With a Calcium reactor, are both Ca and Alk levels kept perfectly in check when the reactor is running well or do you still have to dose for one or the other? Once, occasionally?

Calcium Reactors, Kalk dripping and a well made two part balanced, all supply Calcium and Alkalinity in a balanced way, this is in a proportion that is the same proportion used by corals or abiotic precipitation of 20 ppm of calcim for each 1 meq/lt of alkalinity (2.8 dkh).

In some instances This balanced is upset by factors like nitrification water changes atec. but is not related to the addition itself.

See the links above for additional details.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10311484#post10311484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yossarian
I have been hand-dosing for a long time with Kent's Liquid Reactor, and, due to the PITA factor, I started shopping for a Ca Rx.

Then I noticed the Kalkwasser stirrer-dosers made by Deltec and AquaMedic. So, this is what I was thinking:

Stirrer stirs Liquid Reactor (or two-part dose) 24/7.

You can control the output of the stirrer with a ph Controller, by either turning the pump on and off, or using a solenoid to divert input water to the stirrer during water top-off's.

Cost of stirrer: $200-600, depending upon size.

Cost of ph Controller - $200.

+ media

If ph isn't enough to control Calc levels, then will have to convert to a drip system, which should be easy enough via a $5 valve.

Is this plain stupid?

A couple of notes for clarification:

A Kalk reactor, Kalk stirrer, Lime reactor or Nielsen Reactor is just another method to add lime water to a tank in a controlled fashion and has nothing to do with a two part system or mixing togehter two part additives which shall never be done. It is different than using a premixed Kalk container in a couple of forms.
a) It may use less space as it will dissolve additional Kalk as required without the nead of a large reservoir although a reservoir for the feed water for top off is also recommended although it potentially be connected directly to the RO/Di system (not recommended IMO)
b) It will cost more than just mixing and dripping but has the convinience of refilling less frequently
c) Has all the limitation of addink lime water in regard to a maximum amount of Calcium and Alkalinity added limited by the water evaporation rate of the tank and a bit more limited with a reactor as it seems a reactor will not usually fully saturate the solution as a reservoir does and can not be used with vinegar to increase the saturation.

Regarding the setup the end desired result is to maintain calcium and alkalinity. Because calcium and alkalinity are not proportional or directly related to the PH level, it is not advisable to control the addition using PH as a reference. In this case the PH controller can be used to stop the addition if the PH increases too much but will not serve the purpose of controlling the addition required to maintain the alkalinity.
To control the addition, it is required to use an adjustable rate doser pump or a small pump on a timer in a way to measure the volume added to match the alkalinity consumption.

In summary what is required is:
1. The Kalk reactor (Stirrer)
2. A doser pump (Variable rate preferred)
3. If the doser pump rate is not adjustable a timer or a system of floats to turn on or off the pump as required.
4. The use of a PH controller is not really required although as mentioned above it might add safety by preventing adding Kalk if the PH is too high.

Hope this helps clarify a bit more the use of a Nielsen / Limewater reactor.

 

[yossarian]

Thanks -

I wasn't going to use the Kalk stirrer/doser for Kalk, but instead to mix and dose other chemicals. such as Kent's Liquid Reactor or A+B two-step -- in place of a CaRx.

Sounds like, just like a CaRx, you are stuck manually figuring out the proper dosage.

By the way, Kent's Liquid Reactor has been pretty good to me so far and appears to have the perfect mix of Calcium / Alk.