Can corals be grown under LED?

[woodnaquanut]

Grant and I were talking about this and I mentioned a YouTube video I'd seen showing a beautiful tank with only AquaIlluminations Sol Blue LEDs.

Grant thought others might be interested so I bring it up here. You can read about it and see a great video in the January 2013 issue of 'Advanced Aquarist'.

www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/1/index.html

 

[gonzalez78]

To answer your question, yes corals can be grown using only LEDs. My tank has only LEDs, no metal halides or t-5's or any other kind of lights in the display.

 

[zeroinverse]

Depends on the corals and their natural lighting levels & intensity requirements.

Dragonvale can share more his experiences. I think the main reason some things don't grow or color up well is lack of UV.

 

[Grant W]

Hummm, now where have I heard that before.

 

[NeonFish]

Corals grow well under LEDs. I only have LEDs.

 

[Dragonvale]

Ron's on the money. I have been getting some testers and so far I have a raspberry limeade doing great! BUT yes there is a BUT. Its literally in the top 25% of the tank. I did get lower watt white LED's cause they were out but I had them swap a lower watt just so I could get the kit (So if I got the higher watt diodes I'm sure it will be A LOT better since that 50% of the light). Here are pics of the corals received. GREAT polyp extension and so far so good.

Sorry for the blurry pics. The cube's glass has a slight curve which makes it distorted.

Tank is a 14 gallon Biocube I bought from a customer for my daughter.

Mid way on the tank palys

Tank is a 14 gallon Biocube I bought from a customer for my daughter.

 

[gonzalez78]

If you go with a full spectrum set up you should be fine. I'm hoping in the near future (when I can afford it) to buy some to upgrade my 40B lighting. I will be doing 2 clusters maybe 3 of 4RB, 2NW, 2TV, 1 OCW (ocean cool white). At ledgroupbuydotcom you can buy 3-up stars with 2RB and 1NW as well as the OCW (dark red, cyane and cool blue)

 

[zeroinverse]

Thought I'd share...
(sorry guys, I'm a geeky science/engineer type)... ^_^

DISCLAIMER: I have yet to set up my LED+T5HO hybrid lighting setup. But this is from my extensive research on lighting technology & my past background in making eye-imaging medical devices.
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TANGENT:
Found this article online:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...d-to-be-highly-suitable-for-coral-aquaculture

Does not discuss zoas & acropora. Only Galaxea. So not a complete "proof" yet.

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Different coral types must grow better/worse under LEDs. Both because of their skin thickness, color palette, and feeding mechanism. An anemone, or zoa, or SPS, may do well under certain LEDs because it is getting fed adequately or its combination of photosynthetic symbiotic zooxanthellae may like a particular lighting setup.

For example:

(A)
a naturally orange zoa reflects orange light and absorbs other colors. This means it may do great under BLUE light because its zooxanthellae are absorbing greens & blues and reflecting the orange.

(B)
a fluorescent orange zoa has a fluorescent pigmentation that is taking a higher frequency light (i.e. UV or purple or blue) and using it to excite its electron orbits to re-emit orange light. Maybe that zoa has zooxanthellae that absorbs UV light for its feeding needs and reflects other colors. OR that zoa has two different zooxanthellae populations. One that create the fluorescent pigmentation and another one that feeds off that emitted "orange light".

==============

One experiment I really want to try is to use desert "lizard UV" bulbs along with my LED and light my tank. And see how things grow (or die).

 

[zeroinverse]

For those that are curious about lighting technology:

===============
MH lights are great because they use high voltage (1000s of volts) to excite a custom combination of gases. This allows the "electron orbits" to get pushed to higher orbits (absorbing the energy). When they fall back to their natural "lower orbit", it releases photons. This combination of gases and the different "excitation orbits" (1 level jump vs 2 level jump, etc) is what allows us to "emulate" the sun's light spectrum.

The sun is basically a superheated "excitation energy" for different chemicals, similar to how MH work (at least from perspective of how electron jumps are used to generate the photon light energy).
Because of these different energy levels, sun & MH spectrum covers a very wide range of different nanometer light wavelengths.

=========
LEDs are made from silicon using a fixed electron gap. It is usually controlled to basically have one energy level jump. So you really only get one wavelength of light energy. That's why we have to use different combinations of LEDs to try to get them close to our desired wavelength.

Here's the rub.
LEDs are not made for REEFERs (I wish they were). So the manufacturer never really tunes the wavelength to the best colors that will grow for cholorophyll and other related photo-sensitive organics.

LED manufacturers have probably been focusing on land-based plant growth which is probably why you may see more reds & greens used for terrestrial plant cultivation. But we all know we can't really use those types of lights in our aquarium (both for the nuisance algae growth & it just doesn't look natural).
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As Dragonvale mentioned during the meetup & from my past conversation with Robert @ Neptunes...
Plasma is probably the way to go for future reefing needs.

 

[zeroinverse]

Spectrum References

 

[gonzalez78]

I actually have heard of LEPs being used instead of LEDs with great results

 

[zeroinverse]

I actually have heard of LEPs being used instead of LEDs with great results

makes sense. LEPs are basically the plasma bulbs, which are akin to MH lights. Uses gas excitation to generate wide continuous spectrum photo energy.

 

[gonzalez78]

The drawback on LEPs is they run around $1,500 per unit not to mention they use 250-350 watts.

 

[woodnaquanut]

Interesting discussion.

Did anyone look at the video I referenced? Just do a search on YouTube for 'reefkeeper2'.

There are a couple of plasma users in BAR. Seems to work fine. I think there is an issue with color consistency between units. Since they are 'plasma' it sounds like they would be HOT. Is this correct? I also don't have any idea how energy efficient they are.

For my own tank(s), I have some criteria. First is use less energy. Second, since we do not have AC, make as little heat as possible. I don't want the tank to cook and I don't want to cook while watching the tank!! No chiller!!

Since I have a controller, I'd like to be able to have all the cool sunrise and sunset effects. I'm intrigued by things like lightning storms that only LEDs can do.

 

[gonzalez78]

According to what I have read on them they don't run hot at all. Their "diode" is very small around the size of a pill or an LED. It is also controllable but you can't do all those fancy effects as you can with LEDs just dim. I am yet not familiar with the power consumption but here is some information on one of the systems from chameleon grow systems.

Operating Parameters
Universal Input Voltage - 90 vac to 305 vac
Universal Input Frequency ~ 47 Hz – 63 Hz
Input Current - 301 watts / 2.54 amps @ 120.9 vac/ 59.9 Hz/ .301 kW h
AC to DC Conversion Efficiency - 94%
Relative Humidity (non-condensing) - 5% - 95%
Ambient Operating Temperature - 40°F – 120°F (5°C – 50°C)
Exhaust Temperature (over ambient air temperature) - 10°F (-12°C) ±

 

[crispyreef]

I always thought a photon was a photon, no matter what source.

 

[gbru316]

I always thought a photon was a photon, no matter what source.

That's what Dr. Sanjay Joshi says.

I spent the better part of several weeks researching before building my LED array. I couldn't be happier with the performance so far.

I had a colony of zoas double in size in 2 months (from 13 to over 25 polyps), I have good growth on SPS, color rendering is excellent (subjective). Everything is thriving.

 

[zeroinverse]

That's what Dr. Sanjay Joshi says.

I spent the better part of several weeks researching before building my LED array. I couldn't be happier with the performance so far.

I had a colony of zoas double in size in 2 months (from 13 to over 25 polyps), I have good growth on SPS, color rendering is excellent (subjective). Everything is thriving.

Not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

A photon is a "unit" of light energy. However, there can be high energy photons and lower energy photons.
(higher energy means higher frequency, shorter wavelength)
(lower energy means lower frequency, longer wavelength)

Red & Infrared are lower energy (means both lower frequency & longer wavelength)
Blue, Purples. & UVs are higher energy (means both higher frequency & shorter wavelength)

Gamma rays (are SUPER-HIGH ENERGY photons).

========
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll

Most photosynthetic processes rely on the idea that a photon of a certain amount of energy is absorbed by the photosensitive organic compound (magnesium ion)

The quanta ("unit of energy") that photons emit is what is absorbed by the ion. These organic compounds because of their "structure" absorb certain light frequencies (aka wavelengths) better than others.

So why photon is just a photon, one organic compound's energy absorption ability is not the same as another organic compound's energy absorption ability.

NOTE: this is why infrared light is used to warm/heat up food because a lot of food absorbs those "lower energy photons" better.

 

[gbru316]

Not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

A photon is a "unit" of light energy. However, there can be high energy photons and lower energy photons.
(higher energy means higher frequency, shorter wavelength)
(lower energy means lower frequency, longer wavelength)

Red & Infrared are lower energy (means both lower frequency & longer wavelength)
Blue, Purples. & UVs are higher energy (means both higher frequency & shorter wavelength)

Gamma rays (are SUPER-HIGH ENERGY photons).

========
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll

Most photosynthetic processes rely on the idea that a photon of a certain amount of energy is absorbed by the photosensitive organic compound (magnesium ion)

The quanta ("unit of energy") that photons emit is what is absorbed by the ion. These organic compounds because of their "structure" absorb certain light frequencies (aka wavelengths) better than others.

So why photon is just a photon, one organic compound's energy absorption ability is not the same as another organic compound's energy absorption ability.

NOTE: this is why infrared light is used to warm/heat up food because a lot of food absorbs those "lower energy photons" better.

Provided identical wavelengths, source doesn't matter. That's what Joshi meant. Not that all photons are identical.

1 photon with a wavelength of 420 nm (7.138e5 Ghz) from an LED is the same as a photon with a wavelength of 420 nm from a metal halide lamp. Every photon with a wavelength of 420 nm will ALWAYS have a frequency of 7.138e5 Ghz, just like light at 7.138e5 Ghz will ALWAYS be 420 nm. Source is irrelevant.

f= c/lamba where f = frequency (hertz), c = speed of light (m/s) and lambda = wavelength (m)


Yes, shorter wavelengths have higher energy levels (and higher frequencies), but that isn't what Joshi was saying.

 

[zeroinverse]

So back to the other point.

Photon energy is not all equal and that is why just using a 1000W red LEDs of photon energy will not be the same as using 1000W blue LEDs of photon energy.

Here is what Dr. Sanjay Joshi says
from:http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/coral-interview-dr-sanjay-joshi

CORAL: Based on your experience, are there any types of zooxanthellate invertebrates that do not do well in general under LED lamps?

Prof. Sanjay Joshi: I think people need to realize that a photon is a photon, independent of the source of light. Just because it comes from a light-emitting diode does not make it anything special or different in terms of photosynthesis. As long as the LED can provide enough photons of light over a wide enough spectrum, there should be no problem keeping any kind of zooxanthellate invertebrates. I have not come across any that suffer just because the light is coming from LEDs.​

Note that he says "over a wide enough spectrum".
So yes, doesn't matter what source, but you have to have a wide range of different colors. And not just ANY color wavelength/frequency, but the ones that are targeted by the photosynthetic compounds.