can you use copper with hyposalinity?

[pufferpoison]

as stated above. The copper I have is cupramine.

Thanks

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

No....During Hypo, PH tends to drop and copper is very toxic in low PH water

 

[steve-s]

With Cupramine, the low pH can actually break the amine bond rendering the copper to it's most basic form which at that level would be lethal. It can be done but is definately not recommended.

What are you treating that makes you want to employ both?

Cheers
Steve

 

[pufferpoison]

well it's either brook or Velvet. please see my other post on the subject. All other fish are healthy but if any clown goes in the system, it's dead within a week, stops eating top of body gets a dark washed out color and it stays at the bottom of the tank and then dies, usually after a day of showing symptoms.

 

[steve-s]

If it's velvet or Brook, hyposalinity will not affect either of those. Copper is your only choice for A. ocellatum but copper will be ineffective for treating Brooklynella. You need to do a series of formalin dips for that.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7830437#post7830437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pufferpoison
please see my other post on the subject. All other fish are healthy but if any clown goes in the system, it's dead within a week, stops eating top of body gets a dark washed out color and it stays at the bottom of the tank and then dies, usually after a day of showing symptoms.

Link?

FWIW, clowns of any species no matter how you aquire them should be prophyllactically treated for Brooklynella before adding to the display, symptomatic or not. It is a simple 9 day treatment (3 dips, 3 days apart) using Formalin.

Please see here...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/formalinbaths.html

No matter what you're adding to your system, please consider a QT tank for any wet additions!
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

Cheers
Steve

 

[pufferpoison]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7837539#post7837539

for the link, also the clown has ich looking spots on him, but they have been there for 3 days. I thought ich would fall off and then come back. here's the pictures.

ok so copper will kill ich and velvet, right? so I should do that treatment and give a formalin dip 3 times 3 days apart?

also if I give them a dip and then put them back in the QT tank, isn't that going to just reinfest them again?

and if other fish can carry brook with no symptoms and you QT for 6 weeks and then put them in your tank, isn't that going to infect your clowns? i just don't understand this disease, i've done tons of reading but it doesn't answer my questions.

 

[pufferpoison]

UPDATE:

Ok just got done giving him a formalin dip. It consisted of 2 liters tank water and .5ml formalin with an air stone for 45 minutes. When the dip was done, he still had the spots on his body. if this might help anybody out.

 

[steve-s]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7837548#post7837548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pufferpoison

ok so copper will kill ich and velvet, right? so I should do that treatment and give a formalin dip 3 times 3 days apart?

also if I give them a dip and then put them back in the QT tank, isn't that going to just reinfest them again?

and if other fish can carry brook with no symptoms and you QT for 6 weeks and then put them in your tank, isn't that going to infect your clowns? i just don't understand this disease, i've done tons of reading but it doesn't answer my questions.

One thing you need to consider and let's assume it is so here, the clown may very well be afflicted with both parasites, Brook and C. irritans. May also be it is C. irritans and A. ocellatum, impossible to determine at this point. If so, you will need to employ the copper and the formalin dips in a two pronged approach and cover all the bases.

Brooklynella lives it's entire life cycle on the fish. It does not leave the fish like C. irritans or A. ocellatum to form reproductive cysts. This makes this parasite very easy to eliminate. You have already done the first SW formalin dip so now just wait an additional 3 days do another dip and then a final one 3 days after that. Keep in mind formalin will have littel effect on the other parasites mentioned.

The chances of adding a non clown species carrying this parasite is actually quite slim albeit possible. The parasite is transfered fish to fish from close contact. Simpley being in the same tank does not mean all fish will contract the parasite simpley that they may be at risk, some more tha others. If all your fish go through a QT process, it is very unlikely Brook will go unnoticed.

Since we are unsure this may be velvet or Brook (both?), copper would be the choice over hyposalinity. Where you or I sure this was simpley C. irritans, hypo would be the best choice. Proceed with the Cupramine treatment at 0.5 ppm for the next two weeks and continue with the formalin dips at the same time. Make sure the copper concentration is tested at least once daily and water changes done as needed based on water quality results. It will not be uncommon to need them sometimes twice daily at least in the beginning.

Both treatments will not harm the clown but be sure stress is kept to an absolute minimum. No overhead tank light, low ambient room light, low traffic area, good water quality and quality vitamin/HUFA fortified foods (meat & veg).

Cheers
Steve

 

[pufferpoison]

bravo my friend, bravo. thank you so much for answering my questions. Your treatment will begin today. I have 2 more questions for you though.

1. When i started copper before and added what the bottle of cupramine stated, the AP copper test (10 drops of solvent to a vial of tank water) wasn't reading like it should have. It still stayed at 0. What test kit do you recommend with cupramine?

2. Ok so if withing over 2 months and no fish in the 46G tank shows any signs of anything wrong with them (eat like total pigs, never seen any rubbing or white spots and they act normal and swim everywhere) is this tank free of brook? i mean, it's weird that as soon as a clown goes in there, it just seems to die. Although most have came from the same place or was mixed in there with a clown from the same place where we believe all this was started at. here's the fish - Royal Gamma, 2 dalmation mollies, red firefish and a LM blenny.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Hmmmmm......If this is the Steve S. I think it is, your in good hands He has helped me through some very strange Situations with a couple of my fish

Good luck to you, hope your Clown pulls through

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Here's a link BTW, with pics of Brook and ich..

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=127010

 

[pufferpoison]

excellent pics there, those poor fish. It looks as if i might be battling Ich and Brook, still need an answer about my question. If brook is not free swimming, and no other fish shows signs over 2 months in the DT, and you do the formalin dips as instructed and the copper, when the clown goes into the DT, which has had clowns with brook in it, it should be ok right?

 

[steve-s]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7839407#post7839407 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pufferpoison
1. When i started copper before and added what the bottle of cupramine stated, the AP copper test (10 drops of solvent to a vial of tank water) wasn't reading like it should have. It still stayed at 0. What test kit do you recommend with cupramine?

Cupramine needs to be added twice over 48 hrs to get the required concentration. 1 ml for each 10½ gal of water volume (or 2 drops/gal) on the first day and then repeat again 2 days later. This should give you a concentration of 0.5 ppm Cupramine with a toatla dosage of 2 ml for each 10.5 gal of water volume (or 4 drops/gal).

If your not getting a reading on your test kit, it's not meant to read this type of copper, the concentration of copper is not at the correct level or the test kit is not sensitive enough to register at this level. With this copper or any brand for that matter, the best kit to get is the same company that manufactured the copper itself. In this case that would be Seachem's multitest copper ....
http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/MTCopper.html

Aquarium Pharms test kit is primarily for chelate (1.5-2.0 ppm) so it may not easily read the lower Amine based level of the Cupramine. You can try using ½ the amount of water and doubling the results but I don't think it will be quite accurate.

2. Ok so if withing over 2 months and no fish in the 46G tank shows any signs of anything wrong with them (eat like total pigs, never seen any rubbing or white spots and they act normal and swim everywhere) is this tank free of brook? i mean, it's weird that as soon as a clown goes in there, it just seems to die. Although most have came from the same place or was mixed in there with a clown from the same place where we believe all this was started at. here's the fish - Royal Gamma, 2 dalmation mollies, red firefish and a LM blenny.

Brooklynella will usually die out when the fish that carried dies (or is cured). Brook cannot continue without a host and any fish that aquires it would have showed symptoms within a two month period. Usually within days really. Cryptocaryon irritans on the other hand can be a different story. As I said earlier, always assume clowns are infected with Brook weather symptomatic or not and treat them accordingly. While in the QT they can be observed for any additional concerns.

Have any of these (past or present) fish shown any signs of red/rough scales or white lines/patchs on the body area? Including the fish you listed above.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7841152#post7841152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
Hmmmmm......If this is the Steve S. I think it is, your in good hands He has helped me through some very strange Situations with a couple of my fish

How are the little kiddies?

Cheers
Steve

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Doing very well!! The Whiteface still has the little bumps but it otherwise eating well and behaving normal. I think whatever he has is incurable so I am leaving him be..He is loving the 8' tank!! The Hippo is clean, clean and getting big [and seems to be obsessed with my Iridis Wrasse lol ]..The tiny specks that would appear on the Raccoon have not been seen since I added the 80 watt UV.. Very strange..So many things it could have been..The fish have all settled in, they aren't having their little squabbles anymore so the stress level is down.

Good to see you here!

 

[pufferpoison]

besides the clowns, no all other fish have never shown signs of anything.

 

[steve-s]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7857327#post7857327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pufferpoison
besides the clowns, no all other fish have never shown signs of anything.

Good to hear. Continue with the duo treatment as discussed.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Sorry Puffer, just one more sidetrack...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7855372#post7855372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
The Hippo is clean, clean and getting big [and seems to be obsessed with my Iridis Wrasse lol ]...

.
Don't know what it is with hippo's but they love to play puppydog. Moreso with wrasses in my experience. Let's hope your's remains patient about it. LOL... :lol:

Cheers
Steve