Captive bred flame angel pair / harem

[Nick_Northern]

Hi all,

I'm have a 90g softie tank thats around 9 weeks old (post cycle), planning on stocking with only captive bred stock and have recently been in touch with a breeder of flame angels in Hawaii from whom I am planning to import fish into the UK.

I was intending to just add the one fish but speaking to the breeder I was thinking I may try a pair or even a trio (leaning towards pair). I wouldn't have considered trying this with wild caught fish but given the fish I will be recieving will be immature (from what I have read one will almost certainly turn male) and are used to being kept at high density think I might have a shot at keeping them happy in a 90.

I'd be interested to hear anyones thoughts on whether this could work? I am not planning on upgrading my system anytime soon and I'm not just looking to cram them in at the fishes expense, it would have to work long-term.

In terms of other stock I do not currently have any fish but was planning on a pair of ocellaris clowns and 1 of either Orchid dottyback / canary blenny / randalls assessor (all captive bred). I had figured that a dotty or blenny could probably take care of themselves but the assesor may be a bit timid?

Any thoughts appreciated. I'd also be interested to hear from anyone with experience of keeping captive bred Centropyge as to how they differ behaviourally, if at all from there wild caught counterparts, I have heard they are generally less territiorial and also less inclined to pick at corals, which to be honest sounds a bit too good to be true!

Thanks

Nick

Tank info
Tank - 90g (48"x18"x24") w 20g sump
Return - DC pump 5000lph
Flow - Maxspect Gyre xf150
Lighting - Maxspect R420R 180w
Skimmer - Bubblemagus Curve 7
Sump w/chaeto
Aorund 120lb caribsea life rock / real reef

Soft coral
Anthelia / Xenia / Cabbage leather (S.dura) / Toadstool frag (Sarcophyton trocheliophorum) / 2 x finger sinularia / 2 x gorgonian frag / zoa colony

CUC
2 x strawberry conch / 11 x trochus / 3 x blue legs

 

[alton]

Although my trio is wild caught you will enjoy having them. My male becomes aggressive come breeding time. I started with him and then added a female. Their pairing took several months, the second female pairing only took minutes.

 

[Nick_Northern]

Awesome, they do look really cool as a trio, is that the male at the top? Is the males aggression generally directed at the females or it is more widespread?

Looks like your tank is significantly bigger than mine so maybe a pair would suit mine more.

 

[ThRoewer]

When I paired dwarf angels in the past it usually took just minutes for them to pair. Though I usually used sexed adults.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[alton]

Awesome, they do look really cool as a trio, is that the male at the top? Is the males aggression generally directed at the females or it is more widespread?

Looks like your tank is significantly bigger than mine so maybe a pair would suit mine more.

The larger is the male, and he is aggressive towards everyone when it is mating time. The medium sized female was very small when added, she would hide out in my birdsnest for protection because the male was too large to to get to her. But at feeding time she would dart out grab food right out from under his nose and dart back in for protection. It was an awesome game to watch, until they paired. The second female was also added very small, the courtship took five minutes and the pairing was complete.

 

[Donivan2009]

I don't think a 90g is too small for a trio IMO. Especially if your only planning on adding 3 more fish in addition. I love flame angels and they are definitely more entertaining with tank mates. If they are CB, they should be a lot less aggressive. If you have a fellow reefer friend, you could always give the 3rd away in case having a trio doesn't work out.
Keep us updated on what you decide. Good Luck!

 

[Nick_Northern]

Thanks both, I am going to give it a try, will have to see if my bank balance can stretch to 3 in the first place, not sure how much they will cost yet but certainly won't be cheap!

In terms of tankmates i'm thinking the orchid dotty might be a safer bet than a canary blenny, would not be a good day if the canary decided to bite back if attacked

 

[Dkuhlmann]

If you're looking for a yellow fish take a look at the Midas blenny. Great fish very personable and gets along with all other fish very well. BUT I'm not so sure you can find one tank bred.

Great idea and looking forward to pictures of your new fish. Definitely go for the trio, I think in the long run you'll be happy that you did.

 

[OrionN]

Thanks both, I am going to give it a try, will have to see if my bank balance can stretch to 3 in the first place, not sure how much they will cost yet but certainly won't be cheap!

In terms of tankmates i'm thinking the orchid dotty might be a safer bet than a canary blenny, would not be a good day if the canary decided to bite back if attacked

Young Flame Angels are sexless and the donate one will turn male. Since you are looking for tank raise specifically so small young angels will not be a problem.
If this is too pricey and you decided to go for bigger wild caught ones, these angels are dimorphic and you can easy sex them. Ask if you want help in how to determine their sex and we would gladly help.
Flame angels are not aggressive toward other fishes IME. They mildly chase each other. If you put two male in an aquarium, they will fight fairly aggressively. Not from personal experiences but I know of, and seen 4 Flame angels in a 120 gal tank, two of which were males. There were fighting for several months but one of the male sex reverted back to female and all were fine after that.
This is not what the literature said on Flame Angels. Scott Michael state in his book that Flame angels are permanent protogynous hermaprodite. However, on this same table, Scott Michael did a poor job at pointing out the dimorphic characteristics of this species that would clearly identify the male from female Flame angel.

 

[TerrapinStation]

I'll bite - how do you id male vs female?

 

[ThRoewer]

I go by body shape: at same body height males are longer than females.

First article in this thread has pretty good pictures of what I'm talking about. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2555229
It's for C. interuptus, so ignore the color differences and concentrate on the body shape.

 

[OrionN]

The coloration and the amount of blue or black stripe is not as accurate becasue these varies according to locality. The shape of the fish and the shape of the fins are constant and can be use to sex Flame angels

 

[ThRoewer]

Fins can be damaged.
The only true constant is the body shape.

Color may work if all specimen come from the same location.

 

[OrionN]

Fins can be damaged.
The only true constant is the body shape.

Color may work if all specimen come from the same location.

If the angels have fin rots or chunks missing from the fins I, most of us, would not buy him/her anyway.
I agree that the body shape differences is there, it is so supple that it is so hard to use to determine the sex of the fish. I can only see the differences when looking side by side, live. I am not able to use it from pictures either unless they hold their fins at the same level of extension in the pictures.
For me, one glance at the fins, the easiest, and I know. Of course there will be a rare fish that physiologic changed, but not quite morphological changed yet.

 

[Nick_Northern]

If you're looking for a yellow fish take a look at the Midas blenny. Great fish very personable and gets along with all other fish very well. BUT I'm not so sure you can find one tank bred.

Great idea and looking forward to pictures of your new fish. Definitely go for the trio, I think in the long run you'll be happy that you did.

Thanks I do like midas blennys but as you say, don't think anyone is breeding them at the mo, another possible thought was a yellow assessor but I'm not sure it could look after itself with the angels.

 

[Nick_Northern]

Young Flame Angels are sexless and the donate one will turn male. Since you are looking for tank raise specifically so small young angels will not be a problem.
If this is too pricey and you decided to go for bigger wild caught ones, these angels are dimorphic and you can easy sex them. Ask if you want help in how to determine their sex and we would gladly help.

Thanks for the info, i'm going to stick with captive bred so sounds like I'm pretty much guaranteed to end up with a male.