Carbon dosing 10K macro growout

Subsea

Premium Member
Considering the size of my greenhouse growout system, in light of recent conversations on carbon dosing, I pondered if carbon dosing was required and would it be cost effective. Was carbon dosing even necessary to grow macro algae? Until very recently my product was Red Ogo as a food for people. Trace mineral addittion was mainly accomplished using Instant Ocean as the Red Ogo absorbed major and minor nutrients from the water. This depletion of salt was noted by a falling salinity even with extensive evaporation rates, which should have increased the salinity. I realized that macro algae was up taking the nutrients, which was validated by chemical analysis of Red Ogo from Ward Labs.

Coupled with the above question, I have noted an explosion in amphipod populations. In reading Paul's thread, "I overdid it with pods", I was intrigued with his point that pods like flat surfaces. In the initial system design, my goal was to provide the reef hobby market with an economial live rock grown in a greenhouse using Edwards Plateau dense limestone that was deposited when a shallow sea covered the Texas Hill Country. To that end, I built The Tank under a 20' by 40' greenhouse. The Tank measures 4' deep with a footprint of 12' by 24'. Two large shelves were built to be used as tables to hold rock curing within 1' of the water surface. These tables are held up with a 2" PVC framework which was augmented with concrete cinder blocks. After Paul's thread, I turned over some extra cinder blocks that were left on top of the corrugated polycarbonate roofing material. Eureka, abundant pods. In further investing some 150G Rubbermaid tanks with a conglomerate of red moss macro algae, I was amazed at the proliferation of the amphipod populations within the matrix of moss. It seems that my business plan is changing from people food to macro algae for herbivores and pod consumers.

If my goal is to grow pods, what do they need to flourish? Obviously, it is already in my system, but where does it come from. The obvious answer is that carbon dioxide in the air is soluble in water and is the source of my carbon input to the system. Because I use regenative blowers to move water, carbon input enters the system that way. However, my requirement to use evaporative cooling presents, IMO, an even larger source of carbon input. A 1/2HP pump sends 5000GPHr water jets made by drilling 1/8" holes in two 20' lengths of PVC pipe running the length of The Tank. During the hottest part of the day, two 1/2HP exhaust fans draw 10,000 CFM of hot dry air across the surface of The Tank and through several hundred 1/8" water streams that rise to the top of the greenhouse and fall back to the water surface. This process evaporates 100 GPD during 100 degree weather and maintains system temperature between 81 and 78 degrees.

I don't know the chemical equations that convert CO2 as a gas to carbon, but I do know that it is happing by the results I see. Does CO2 solubility into water provide any substantial measure of carbon dosing in our reef tanks. I will leave that one to the scientist.
Patrick
 
This isn't the video I saw a few years ago. But it's close. Makes you wonder why we don't make more of these. The video I saw, they were running the exhaust from generators through one of these at a fair to scrubb the exhaust to make it more clean.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3Al1dpuUY

Are you supposed to use IO for human food?
 
Was carbon dosing even necessary to grow macro algae?

Carbon dosing to most refers now means organic carbon. In that context, you mean to provide CO2 after it breaks down? The answer is no (since many people grow it without organic carbon dosing), but more CO2 may be helpful in some circumstances.

If you mean CO2 dosing or at least equilibration, then yes, CO2 can be helpful to algae of various types. That is their source of carbon.

I don't know the chemical equations that convert CO2 as a gas to carbon, but I do know that it is happing by the results I see. Does CO2 solubility into water provide any substantial measure of carbon dosing in our reef tanks. I will leave that one to the scientist.

In the sense that most of us talk about it, by driving bacterial growth, no it does not.

As a source of CO2/bicarbonate/carbonate, yes. This is well known.

CO2 levels are exactly measured by pH and alkalinity. More CO2 means lower pH at a given alkalinity.

Some algae use CO2 directly and some get it from bicarbonate.

If the species you are growing take up CO2, then more CO2/lower pH may help them grow. IF they use bicarbonate, higher alkalinity may help.

This has more:

Photosynthesis and the Reef Aquarium Part I: Carbon Sources
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php
 
Randy,
Thank you for the article, that is a wonderful read. The complexities of how nature works never ceases to amaze me. The fact that some macro can adapt to differrent techniques to uptake carbon: either directly from CO2 or thru bicarbonate uptake, intrigues me. Would this adaptability be expected in corals that habitate the same intertidal zones that get exposed to air. Your point addressing 24hour light cycles reducing efficiencies should put that debate to rest. The initial reason for the 24 hour like cycle was to prevent Calurpae species from going sexual. Can you address the science behind that observation?
Patrick
 
This isn't the video I saw a few years ago. But it's close. Makes you wonder why we don't make more of these. The video I saw, they were running the exhaust from generators through one of these at a fair to scrubb the exhaust to make it more clean.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3Al1dpuUY

Are you supposed to use IO for human food?

That is really neat. Using algae, photosynthesis drives absorbsion of CO2 to clean up coal fired electrical plant exhaust emissions. Then the algae is feed into an anarobic digester with methane gas as the end product. The methane gas drives a gas turbine as a secondary source of electricity.

I am confused with your reference to IO for human food?
Patrick
 
The initial reason for the 24 hour like cycle was to prevent Calurpae species from going sexual. Can you address the science behind that observation?
Patrick

I don't know if it does or not.

I grow two variants of Caulerpa racemosa (one that everyone claims has this issue).

The normal variant has never done that in my system (that I noticed), whether on 24/7 or an 18 hour light cycle.

The peltatta variant has a few times (like once every few years), but as an aside, was never any issue and it does not concern me when it does.

I do dose iron and that may have an impact on such events,.
 
That is really neat. Using algae, photosynthesis drives absorbsion of CO2 to clean up coal fired electrical plant exhaust emissions. Then the algae is feed into an anarobic digester with methane gas as the end product. The methane gas drives a gas turbine as a secondary source of electricity.

I am confused with your reference to IO for human food?
Patrick


Yea, when you mentioned the Co2 in the air being fed into your system. It made me think of that video/idea.

I was in reference to using IO as the salt (artificial sea water) to grow food for human consumption. Your red macro algae that you grow and sell. I wasn't sure if the salt is graded that way? The algae farms I'm aware of (not many) use the ocean water in their tanks or harvest it at low tide.

Typing this response I realized I've thrown this thread off topic. Sorry all.
 
I am all about discussing science. In the big picture, it all has merit.

Because of my control system background as a subsea engineer in deep water drilling, I am familiar with PLC logic. I confused IO to mean input/output.
Patrick
 
Yes, I use IO for major and minor trace addittion. Its chemistry is well documented and consistent as opposed to coastal sea water with potential pollutants. Ward Lab has documented Middle Trinity Aquifer ground water makeup as well as analyzing the chemistry of Red Ogo. Because I plan to sell to hi end restaurants, I control all inputs for Red Ogo growth. The documentation is for quality assurance to customers that want to know what they are eating.
Patrick
 
This isn't the video I saw a few years ago. But it's close. Makes you wonder why we don't make more of these. The video I saw, they were running the exhaust from generators through one of these at a fair to scrubb the exhaust to make it more clean.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3Al1dpuUY

Are you supposed to use IO for human food?

Thank you for your clarification of IO. The question, "Are you supposed to use IO for human food?", begs for an answer. First, I will pose a question to you that was on a philosophy exam my first semester back after 4 years in the military during Vietnam. The final exam question was "WHY". We had two hours to complete the exam. I pondered for 10 minutes. I watched people writing quickly. Some crumpled paper and restarted writting feavorishly. After weighing my options, I wrote "Why Not" and handed it to the professor. I figured that I flunked the exam and probably did not need a credit in philosophy anyway. I received an A+ for the exam. I figure the professor appreciated the ease of grading the paper but more importantly, it was a good answer.

Why would synthetic salt be a bad thing for human consumption? Many tilapia farms have chicken coups over the fish ponds. Is chicken **** fit for human consumption? Its organic it must be good.

People have a right to know what they are eating. I list the elements in the salt mix. I list the chemical composition of the aquifer water as analyzed by Ward Lab and I list the chemical composition and protein content of Red Ogo.

I have already spoken with the department head of Mariculture for Texas A & M. He is also head of Agri-Life for the Texas Agriculture Department. I have decided to call my product line for people "Natural Seaweed". All the constituents are documented, I add water and sunshine. How more natural can you get?
Patrick
 
This is an interesting one. Part of me thinks that you can not grow food for humans in synthetic salt mix. And part of me says you are free to grow the food in any medium you choose. I am going to reed the back of my bucket of instant ocean later on tonight and see what it says. My guess is that it will state"not for human consumption" ,this you could argue both ways. You could argue that the humans are not eating the Salt so this would be legal. But you could also argue that the algae absorbs the synthetic salt water so yes humans are in fact eating the salt mix. Mmmmmm
 
The disclaimer on the bucket is lawyer talk for, "we are not liable". It has nothing to do with how I use IO, nor does it project this mandate to me. Shakespeare had it right when he said, "First, we kill all the lawyers".
Patrick
 
Thank you for your clarification of IO. The question, "Are you supposed to use IO for human food?", begs for an answer. First, I will pose a question to you that was on a philosophy exam my first semester back after 4 years in the military during Vietnam. The final exam question was "WHY". We had two hours to complete the exam. I pondered for 10 minutes. I watched people writing quickly. Some crumpled paper and restarted writting feavorishly. After weighing my options, I wrote "Why Not" and handed it to the professor. I figured that I flunked the exam and probably did not need a credit in philosophy anyway. I received an A+ for the exam. I figure the professor appreciated the ease of grading the paper but more importantly, it was a good answer.

Why would synthetic salt be a bad thing for human consumption? Many tilapia farms have chicken coups over the fish ponds. Is chicken **** fit for human consumption? Its organic it must be good.

People have a right to know what they are eating. I list the elements in the salt mix. I list the chemical composition of the aquifer water as analyzed by Ward Lab and I list the chemical composition and protein content of Red Ogo.

I have already spoken with the department head of Mariculture for Texas A & M. He is also head of Agri-Life for the Texas Agriculture Department. I have decided to call my product line for people "Natural Seaweed". All the constituents are documented, I add water and sunshine. How more natural can you get?
Patrick


Yes in deed, why not. Magnus walker said, it's nice not having an education sometimes, cause you don't know where the boundaries are.

My question came from what was mentioned by spamreefnew. The lawyer thing. If the salt mix stated not for human consumption on its label. Then some person somewhere might not like the brine. I would love to grow some seaweed for us along with the other vegetables we already grow. If I can use IO to accomplish this. That would be awesome.

While I don't have a bucket of salt, I do have a bag of the 50 gallon mix. Nowhere on there that I saw said anything about it not being fit for human consumption. That I believe to be a huge plus here. The only salt water that's close to me is a Bay Area for shipping containers and it's lined with restaurants on stilts. I'm not going to be using that water anytime soon.
 
Consider the point, "Not for human consumption" in a different way:

They meant the plastic bucket.
Patrick
 
Yes in deed, why not. Magnus walker said, it's nice not having an education sometimes, cause you don't know where the boundaries are.

My question came from what was mentioned by spamreefnew. The lawyer thing. If the salt mix stated not for human consumption on its label. Then some person somewhere might not like the brine. I would love to grow some seaweed for us along with the other vegetables we already grow. If I can use IO to accomplish this. That would be awesome.

While I don't have a bucket of salt, I do have a bag of the 50 gallon mix. Nowhere on there that I saw said anything about it not being fit for human consumption. That I believe to be a huge plus here. The only salt water that's close to me is a Bay Area for shipping containers and it's lined with restaurants on stilts. I'm not going to be using that water anytime soon.

Not knowing who Magnus Walker is, I do not agree with the content of his quote. Education does not develop a mindset. Attitude is everything. It is dynamic and it is the filter by which one reacts to everything. Usually arrogance is the brother of a closed mind. It is found in every walk of life and everything that is filtered by the ego is effected by attitude.
"Is the glass half full or half empty?"
Patrick
 
Not knowing who Magnus Walker is, I do not agree with the content of his quote. Education does not develop a mindset. Attitude is everything. It is dynamic and it is the filter by which one reacts to everything. Usually arrogance is the brother of a closed mind. It is found in every walk of life and everything that is filtered by the ego is effected by attitude.
"Is the glass half full or half empty?"
Patrick

I interpreted the Magnus quote as you unaware of physical and mental limitations( which has an attitude point)
I am self taught all my life and avoided thinking about personal limitations
I still love the Nikki quote "just do it" lol
 
I interpreted the Magnus quote as you unaware of physical and mental limitations( which has an attitude point)
I am self taught all my life and avoided thinking about personal limitations
I still love the Nikki quote "just do it" lol


:thumbsup:
 
Back
Top