Carbon dosing 10K macro growout

Economics

Economics

This isn't the video I saw a few years ago. But it's close. Makes you wonder why we don't make more of these. The video I saw, they were running the exhaust from generators through one of these at a fair to scrubb the exhaust to make it more clean.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3Al1dpuUY

Are you supposed to use IO for human food?



The science of recycling nutrients has been in place for longer than man has existed on earth. Through dynamic equilibrium involving nitrogen & carbon dioxide gas the concentrations are moved back and fourth. In one of the articles which I read after a Randy link, through the process of phosynthesis with phytoplankton, it is approximated that 100 billion tons or CO2 are processed each day by phytoplankton. Unlike trees and grass which store the sugars from photosynthesis, there are large areas of the ocean that pump this form of carbon dioxide into the deep abyss. Not much is known about this part of the cycle. With phytoplankton as the bottom of the food chain, it is integral in the ocean to have a source of CO2.

Microalgae is a very inefficient process to produce methan gas. It cost more money than other processes. The Kentucky study was funded by grants from the government.

A more cost effective method to use the phytoplankton, would be to use it as a food source and grow fish. In my case, amphipods have made there entrance. While I still grow Red Ogo in tanks with tumble culture, I have many more tanks with other invasive macros like Ulva and a red moss that provides a matrix for amphipods & copepods. To date, I have not had to feed them anything but CO2 and sunshine. When I notice the Red Ogo rate of growth slowing down, I add a gallon of ammonia. At present, I am juggling iron & dipotassium phosphate dosing. The seaweed is a sponge. Yesterday, I upped the intensity of photosynthesis on 1/3 of the greenhouse. This section is over eight 150G Rubbermaid tanks. Their rate of growth was much slower than the original system which consisted of three Rubbermaid tanks in direct sunshine buried in the ground for geothermal cooling and heating.
Heat removal & temperature control was my biggest concern this summer. Previous, the greenhouse was not enclosed. It was set up with a shaded roof and passive air circulation. This summer, I completed all enclosures and installed two exhaust fans that move 10,000 CFM. To reduce the heat gain, the plastic film reduces light transmission by 65%. On top of that, I also have a nylon knit shade cloth that reduces light transmission by 50%. Yesterday, I pulled back 12' of this shade cloth on the west side of greenhouse. Initial heat gain observations are encouraging with no observed water temperature gain. With low humidities, that was easy to do yesterday.

I now wait for accelerated growth in these tanks as I dose more carbon and sunshine.
Patrick
 
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Nitrogen fixation

Nitrogen fixation

Ammonia is a cheap source on nitrogen (1G at Tractor Supply for $4). However, I ponder natural processes. In a different thread on skimmerless, it was noted that Faculative bacteria perform nitrogen fixation. As a landowner and good steward, I have used leguminous plants: American Vetch, clover and beans to transfer nitrogen gas from the athmosphere into plant biomass. then plow this green fertilizer back into the soil to recycle nutrients for the next crop rotation. For game management as a natural food crop, it is hard to beat.

In the marine environment what type of habitate would these nitrogen fixing bacteria favor?

A friend has posted on another hobby website that nitrogen fixation bacteria provide a storage mechanism to feed coral when it is not available in the bulkwater. I find that intriguing and it perhaps addresses the ongoing debate of SPS needs for low nutrient water. SPS are no differrent that other corals in their need for food. They get it both ways, by photosynthesis with their symbiotic algae producing food and from the water column to a lesser degree. The idea that bacteria living in the internal biomass of the coral are another back up source of food to feed the coral shows me the perfection of biology in nature.
I seek to learn,
Patrick
 
Nitrigon Fixation

Nitrigon Fixation

Was carbon dosing even necessary to grow macro algae?

Carbon dosing to most refers now means organic carbon. In that context, you mean to provide CO2 after it breaks down? The answer is no (since many people grow it without organic carbon dosing), but more CO2 may be helpful in some circumstances.

If you mean CO2 dosing or at least equilibration, then yes, CO2 can be helpful to algae of various types. That is their source of carbon.


As a source of CO2/bicarbonate/carbonate, yes. This is well known.

CO2 levels are exactly measured by pH and alkalinity. More CO2 means lower pH at a given alkalinity.

Some algae use CO2 directly and some get it from bicarbonate.

If the species you are growing take up CO2, then more CO2/lower pH may help them grow. IF they use bicarbonate, higher alkalinity may help.

This has more:

Photosynthesis and the Reef Aquarium Part I: Carbon Sources
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

Randy,
With respect to a nitrogen source, I use ammonia from Tractor Supply at $4 a gallon. However, for long term operation, I am interested in using bacteria, if it is feasible. Considering discoveries with nitrification and denitrification occurring in close proximacy of each other. At the preliminary level, Jerry Brand at UTEX did not think it significant. What are your thoughts on it? Could you recommend any scientific links are articles on the subject?
Patrick

On Sep 17, 2014, at 7:36 AM, "Brand, Jerry J" <jbrand@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

> Greetings Patrick,
>
> I am afraid your conversation regarding facultative nitrogen fixing bacteria is beyond the scope of my expertise, so I don't think I can offer a perspective as good as the experienced experts in your conversation.
>
> As an interested outsider, it seems to me that there are two related central issues for the aquarium manager who maintains macroalgae (1) stability of a tank of a desired composition and (2) minimization of labor. Those issues surely override material costs, probably with your large-scale outdoor system as much as to the high-end aquarium manager and the owner of a small marine aquarium.
>
> The potentially desirable feature of facultative nitrogen-fixing bacteria in the sediment is that they may be self-regulating. Surely it is very difficult to dose with nitrate or another nitrogen source without providing an excess or suboptimal quantity. Actively growing bacteria provide a slow-release form of nutrients, including nitrogen.
>
> It is impossible to manage an aquarium that does not allow entry of all kinds of bacteria from the outside with the introduction or removal of new plants and fish, and even from the atmosphere. Thus, in the long run the microbial composition of the sediment will be determined by its physical and chemical environment. With the dense forest of macroalgae in your large outdoor tanks, it seems likely that the atmospheric nitrogen assimilated and eventually released by the bacteria wouldn't be sufficient to support the entire community, no matter what species of bacteria are present. Maybe you should consider ways to produce an enlarged anaerobic environment by changes in physical design in order to enlarge the anaerobic bacteria community.
>
> I am sorry I cannot be of more help. My lack of sufficient knowledge & experience is one of two reasons that I cannot become involved in your electronic conversation. The other reason is that I am to easily distracted by interesting topics like this one, and must wear blinders.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Castille [mailto:johnpatrickcastille@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 1:09 PM
> To: Brand, Jerry J
> Subject: Carbon doing & nitrogen fixation in greenhouse growout.
>
> Jerry,
>
> The subject continues to reign supreme. How important are bacteria in our marine ecosystems? Microbial overlords was one phrase that was put to me during a discussion. Whatever perspective one takes, the importance of bacteria in the survival of planet earth can not be over emphasized.
>
> With respect to my macro grow out system, economy of operations are paramount. Economy of energy in nature is paramount for survival. To that end, I wish to emulate nature. In my thread on this topic, Randy Holmes Farley has confirmed to me that carbon dosing is in effect due to solubility of CO2 in water. To the same point of solubility of a gas in water, considering that nitrogen gas is 70% of the air we breath, help me understand how to enhance the marine environment for nitrogen fixation using facultative bacteria.
>
> If you are interested, I will include a link to this thread which I started. Because I am the author of the thread, I modulate content and steer direction,
>
> Thank you again for your wisdom and knowledge.
> Your Cajun friend,
> Patrick.
>
> PS. I thought of you the other day. I made a Cajun "chicken fricassee" and had no one to share it with.
>
>
 
Not sure exactly what you mean by close proximity and what implications that has. It may mean different things to different people.

I'm not sure how you'd go about using nitrogen fixing bacteria, or if that would even be useful when growing macroalgae. You'd have to grow them (which primarily means cyanobacteria, I think) then let it die and release nutrients. Personally, I see no point in pursuing that.

Ammonia seems like an OK source if there are not a lot of other sensitive inverts around, and algae can either take it up directly, or bacteria will convert some into nitrite and nitrate that can be taken up by macroalgae. :)
 
Cyanobacteria inhabit nearly all illuminated environments on Earth and play key roles in the carbon and nitrogen cycle of the biosphere. In general, cyanobacteria are able to utilize a variety of inorganic and organic sources of combined nitrogen, like nitrate, nitrite, ammonium, urea, or some amino acids. Several cyanobacterial strains are also capable of diazotrophic growth, an ability that may have been present in their last common ancestor in the Archean eon.[7] Nitrogen fixation by cyanobacteria in coral reefs can fix twice the amount of nitrogen than on land—around 1.8 kg of nitrogen is fixed per hectare per day. The colonial marine cyanobacterium Trichodesmium is thought to fix nitrogen on such a scale that it accounts for almost half of the nitrogen-fixation in marine systems on a global scale.[8]


Randy,
I dream too much.
Inverts in the form of amphipods are abundant. I will design a mixing system to apply ammonia as a diluted feed into the Big System.
Patrick
 
Gracilaria Parvispora/Red Ogo: Chemical analysis

Gracilaria Parvispora/Red Ogo: Chemical analysis

Due to lack of computer skills, I could not electronic import the document. If someone provides me an email address, I can link attach it.

Ward Lab analysis for Red Ogo / Tang Heaven Red / Gravilaria Parvispora

Note: the results are for dry matter. Ogo is 92% water.

N at 2.59 %
P at 0.062 %
K at 13.54 %
Ca at 0.555%
Mg at 1.63%
S at 4.82 %
Zn at 139 ppm
Fe at 107 ppm
Mn at 20 ppm
Cu at 7 ppm

For most hobbiest the main thing to take away is that nitrate to phosphate is in a ratio of 30:1
Patrick

Randy,
I found it interesting that copper was not detected, within the accuracy of testing procedures, yet it showed at 7 ppm in the dry analysis.
Patrick
 
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Trinity Aquifer at 900'

Trinity Aquifer at 900'

Iron related bacteria at 500 cfu/ml
pH at 7.8
pH c at 6.7
Sodium Absorption Ratio at 0.9
TDS at 888 ppm
Electrical Conductivity 1.48 mmho/cm
Cations/Anions 17.8 / 18.4 me/L

Na at 55 ppm
K at 14 ppm
Ca at 130 ppm
Mg at 102 ppm
Total Hardness, CaCo3 750 ppm
NO3-N <0.1 ppm
SO4-S at 189 ppm
Cl at 34 ppm
CO3 <0.1 ppm
HCO3 341 ppm
Boron at 0.33 ppm
Total Nitrogen at 2 ppm
Ortho Phosphate <0.01 ppm
Total Phosphate <0.01 ppm
Total Iron at 0.02 ppm
Mn <0.01 ppm
NO2-N <0.1 ppm.
 
Nitrification and denitrification are coupled

Nitrification and denitrification are coupled

Not sure exactly what you mean by close proximity and what implications that has. It may mean different things to different people.

I'm not sure how you'd go about using nitrogen fixing bacteria, or if that would even be useful when growing macroalgae. You'd have to grow them (which primarily means cyanobacteria, I think) then let it die and release nutrients. Personally, I see no point in pursuing that.

Ammonia seems like an OK source if there are not a lot of other sensitive inverts around, and algae can either take it up directly, or bacteria will convert some into nitrite and nitrate that can be taken up by macroalgae. :)

Randy, this is what I was referring to. Patrick

Sprung and Delbeek's 'The Reef Aquarium' series (Vol 3) has some well written and informative information regarding denitrification that I found enlightening. Pages. 260 - 261 go into some detail on the subject:



"It has been shown that nitrification and denitrification occur in aerobic layers where they are termed coupled since the processes occur simultaneously, mediated by bacteria in close proximity. Here anoxic microsites provide habitat for anaereobic bacteria, while being surrounded by aerobic pore waters (Jenkins and Kemp, 1984). This is in contrast with the mental concept that the processes occur in separate aerobic and anaerobic zones."

Here is another reference link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=BH8yVC3ZlSBJ2R_dxCNuQA&bvm=bv.75775273,d.b2U
 
Yes indeed, it is relevant to the discussion. Thank you. Good read.

With all of our technology, we know so little about the details of the origin of the species. Randy said it this week and Martin Moe said it 50 years ago, "it ain't rocket science, it is more complicated.
Patrick
 
This is from a recent study that is germane to the conversation if anyone cares to read more.---------

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130523143741.htm

Ed,
As a proponent of natural biological filtration, the science has finally caught up with validating Nature. In most of my efforts to provide long term success with reef and lagoon theme systems, I strive for multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs. The article which you linked is foundational in validating this principal. Previously, I needed no validation because a successful long term tank of 20+ years was my testimony of validation. The article you linked validates the science of "old school".
It is actually more relevant in my experiment on my reef tanks that are skimmerless with no water changes. By using vinegar as a carbon source, I am growing the bacteria. The skimmer crowd ask, "what are you going to do with the bacteria" with no nutrient export via skimmer or water change. The tank as a natural biological system is going to recycle nutrients in its perfect design of multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs.
Thank you for the information.
Patrick
 
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