Carbon Dosing & Skimmerless

[Aquarist007]

IMO carbon dosing and the growth of macro are conflicting processes since they both compete for nitrates and phosphates . Once they become limiting factors what happens to all the carbon you keep dosing?
Does it then contribute to TOC thus throwing off the carbon balance in the tank. Similarity the increased bacteria will now die off and if you are not skimming I can see a problem with TOC here also

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does fish poop also contribute to the carbon balance equation as well as the nutrient balance equation.
Patrick

PS. When macro grows does it consume any of the carbon source.?

Most macroalgae doesn't consume much organic matter, but at high enough doses it likely can (I got increased microalgae growth at really high vinegar doses, although I can't be sure why).

There are organics in fish poop certainly.

 

[Subsea]

IMO carbon dosing and the growth of macro are conflicting processes since they both compete for nitrates and phosphates . Once they become limiting factors what happens to all the carbon you keep dosing?
Does it then contribute to TOC thus throwing off the carbon balance in the tank. Similarity the increased bacteria will now die off and if you are not skimming I can see a problem with TOC here also

Scot,
I do not agree with conflicting. Competing is my word of choice. Multiple nutrient pathways and diverse food webs is the diversity that I seek.

Nitrates and phosphates are undetectable in the water column of my 12 year old tank. However, with a Jaubert Plenumn on top and a mud filter on bottom, I see many places that can supply the needs of the bacteria for nutrients. For certain, these biological filters are nutrient storage in one form or another. Worms and snails grow in a process of dynamic equilibrium. It is my hope, that these complex food webs provide the dynamics to balance things out. This is the point of experimenting with carbon dosing. I have faith that natures knows best.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

Most macroalgae doesn't consume much organic matter, but at high enough doses it likely can (I got increased microalgae growth at really high vinegar doses, although I can't be sure why).

Randy
Considering the research that shows under electron microscope, macro algae consuming bactetia, would you consider that to explain increased macro growth after high vinegar dosing?
Patrick

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Most macroalgae doesn't consume much organic matter, but at high enough doses it likely can (I got increased microalgae growth at really high vinegar doses, although I can't be sure why).

Randy
Considering the research that shows under electron microscope, macro algae consuming bactetia, would you consider that to explain increased macro growth after high vinegar dosing?
Patrick

I've never heard of that before.

Where did you see it?

 

[Subsea]

I've never heard of that before.

Where did you see it?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130523143741.htm

Scientists offer first definitive proof of bacteria-feeding behavior in green algae
Date:
May 23, 2013
Source:
American Museum of Natural History
Summary:
Researchers have captured images of green alga consuming bacteria, offering a glimpse at how early organisms dating back more than 1 billion years may have acquired free-living photosynthetic cells. This acquisition is thought to be a critical first step in the evolution of photosynthetic algae and land plants, which, in turn, contributed to the increase in oxygen levels in Earth's atmosphere and ocean and provided one of the conditions necessary for animal evolution.

Randy, it blew me away when I read this.
Patrick

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting. THanks.

In my case, I think it much more likely the algae took up acetate directly rather than by consuming bacteria. That process is well established:

http://www.bashanis.org/gmaweb/pdfs/heterotrophicmetabol.pdf

 

[ClearwaterUK]

I used Vodka on my current Skimmer less set up along with Zeo Bak

The reason was to mature the tank bacteria faster, all of the stock and live rock were transferred the same day from the old 375 Ltr system,

The MM sump was brand new and 4" DSB in the display
here would be no nutrient export in the first few weeks, due to the lack of bacteria and Cheato/Calurpa growth

I saw no ill effects from the addition of Vodka, this was discontinued at 6 weeks as no nutrients were detectable which was a concern for the health of the corals

System details

Display

64' x 24" x 30" Deep

Sump

54" x 20" x 19" Deep

dose was 10 ML per day

I don't see why you couldn't do this long term, however on an established tank, you would have to look at N+P if high the results could result in a tank crash

 

[Bilk]

GAC is twice as effective at removing TOC than protein skimming. It also removes noxious chemicals that foam fractionization can not remove. Partial water changes dillute these chemicals but GAC will remove them completely. For that reason I use small amounts and change frequently. Considering that the biological filtration uses these bacteria to produce a proliferation of micro fauna and fana. Why remove bacteria if they are food for the tank? It is a Question of Balance by the Moody Blues.
Patrick Castille

I respect you approach, but I have to ask, where does all this go? Especially if you were not utilizing skimming or carbon dosing.



Everything has a saturation point. Our closed systems are not limitless in what they can process. Eventually nutrients become toxic pollutants. Well that's my understanding of things. Serious questions here.

PS: Hope they don't mind me borrowing their image. I cleaned the skimmer this afternoon otherwise it would look just like that

 

[Subsea]

Thread title is carbon dosing and skimmerless.

Where does it go? Into the biological filter which includes bacteria, NPS, LPS, softies, macros and CUC which multiply & breed in the tank. When I nedd to export, I prune macro or coral frag and sell them.

To be blunt, nobody buys skimmate.
Patrick

 

[Bilk]

Thread title is carbon dosing and skimmerless.

Where does it go? Into the biological filter which includes bacteria, NPS, LPS, softies, macros and CUC which multiply & breed in the tank. When I nedd to export, I prune macro or coral frag and sell them.

To be blunt, nobody buys skimmate.
Patrick

Say Subsea can we see this tank? As I said, I respect your approach and would sure love to see the results. Can you post some pics?

 

[TankRazr]

Would love to see a photo of your reef tank from 1970 as well.

 

[Subsea]

I am not well equipped to post pictures due to computer skills.

Go to my website www.aquacultureranch.com the click on video link. Then go to utube page. View 12 year old Jaubert Plenumn.

It is late and I started the day at 0430 hrs. Enjoy the vidioes.
Good night,
Patrick

 

[2_zoa]

Is this your tank? I didn't search it through your link.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDt8QTAp0Cs

 

[Subsea]

One month update.

I am presently carbon dosing four tanks, no skimmers and three sump less. Each week I have upped the dosage. I will stay at this dosage for necpxt t tek months

1. 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom: dosage of 5% vinegar at 150 ml/.

2. 135G lagoon biotheme with 12 DSB.: dosage of 5% vinegar at 200ml/day

3. #1 55G. Macro/pod tumble culture: dosage of 5% vinegar at 150 ml/day

4. #2 55G lagoon biotheme with < 1" coarse substrate: dosage of 5% vinegar at 150 ml/day

PS. COMMENTS
#1 Jaubert Plenum had a sever GHA outbreak. I purchased $200 worth of janitors from Reeftopia to assist with cleanup. Instead of nutrient export with skimmer, I am using aggressive nutrient recycling in reverse. Six urchins, four Lettuce Nudibrances and 12 Emerald Crabs will clean up my GHA

 

[Subsea]

Is this your tank? I didn't search it through your link.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDt8QTAp0Cs

Yes, this is my tank. Video was made in April of this year. Thank you for posting for me.
Patrick

 

[Bilk]

One month update.

I am presently carbon dosing four tanks, no skimmers and three sump less. Each week I have upped the dosage. I will stay at this dosage for necpxt t tek months

1. 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom: dosage of 5% vinegar at 150 ml/.

2. 135G lagoon biotheme with 12 DSB.: dosage of 5% vinegar at 200ml/day

3. #1 55G. Macro/pod tumble culture: dosage of 5% vinegar at 150 ml/day

4. #2 55G lagoon biotheme with < 1" coarse substrate: dosage of 5% vinegar at 150 ml/day

PS. COMMENTS
#1 Jaubert Plenum had a sever GHA outbreak. I purchased $200 worth of janitors from Reeftopia to assist with cleanup. Instead of nutrient export with skimmer, I am using aggressive nutrient recycling in reverse. Six urchins, four Lettuce Nudibrances and 12 Emerald Crabs will clean up my GHA

Your dosages are much higher than the recommended regimen. The dosage range is from .4ml - .6ml /gallon and not much more. Start at the low end and work your way up. I'd be careful with your dosing regimen especially since you don't skim.

 

[Subsea]

Your dosages are much higher than the recommended regimen. The dosage range is from .4ml - .6ml /gallon and not much more. Start at the low end and work your way up. I'd be careful with your dosing regimen especially since you don't skim.

Thank you for the concern and the word of caution. Yes, I saw that recommended dosage rate and many more differrent recommendations. I started with .5ml/gal on week one. At the end of week 2, I doubled the dose to 1 ml/gal. On week 4, which is today, I doubled the dose again to 2ml/gal.

Let us talk about the science of carbon dosing and cause and effect. Everything on planet earth is carbon based. If it grows, it needs carbon. As I see it, bacteria are not the only consumer of carbon. Macro algae and coral also consume carbon. If I put too much acetic acid what is the cause and effect. I am not much concerned about pH. Vinegar is added at beginning of the photo period. I haven aragonite DSB that assist with alkalinity buffering so I am not very concerned about reducing pH. What is the main concern for too much carbon dosed? Is it a bacteria bloom? Some cloudy water does not concern me much as it should equalize out and clear up after a day or so.

I would be more concerned with a phytoplankton bloom. During lights out, it would consume oxygen and respire CO2.

I thank you again for your interest. I have been affected by the spirit here in Austin. Just do it. One other note about my attitude toward caution. Between 1966 - 1970, I served four 90 day combat tours in black ops working for the CIA in Cambodia. I stared into the face of evil and laughed at it. The Khmer Rouge were the ultimate terriost, but we were worse. I fear very little in this life. I put that hat away in the back of the closet. I am connected to a higher power and I strive to excel.

At this point in my life, my attitude is best summed up in Cajun French.
Laissez la bonne temps roulee,
Patrick

 

[Bilk]

Thank you for the concern and the word of caution. Yes, I saw that recommended dosage rate and many more differrent recommendations. I started with .5ml/gal on week one. At the end of week 2, I doubled the dose to 1 ml/gal. On week 4, which is today, I doubled the dose again to 2ml/gal.

Let us talk about the science of carbon dosing and cause and effect. Everything on planet earth is carbon based. If it grows, it needs carbon. As I see it, bacteria are not the only consumer of carbon. Macro algae and coral also consume carbon. If I put too much acetic acid what is the cause and effect. I am not much concerned about pH. Vinegar is added at beginning of the photo period. I haven aragonite DSB that assist with alkalinity buffering so I am not very concerned about reducing pH. What is the main concern for too much carbon dosed? Is it a bacteria bloom? Some cloudy water does not concern me much as it should equalize out and clear up after a day or so.

I would be more concerned with a phytoplankton bloom. During lights out, it would consume oxygen and respire CO2.

I thank you again for your interest. I have been affected by the spirit here in Austin. Just do it. One other note about my attitude toward caution. Between 1966 - 1970, I served four 90 day combat tours in black ops working for the CIA in Cambodia. I stared into the face of evil and laughed at it. The Khmer Rouge were the ultimate terriost, but we were worse. I fear very little in this life. I put that hat away in the back of the closet. I am connected to a higher power and I strive to excel.

At this point in my life, my attitude is best summed up in Cajun French.
Laissez la bonne temps roulee,
Patrick

Hoorah! Or what ever it is the CIA shout. Or do they just stay quiet?

Guess you have it all figured out Good luck and god speed! :fish1:

Say this is the first time I've seen a reef tank compared to jungle warfare :eek1:

 

[Subsea]

They just stay quiet. My x of 38 years did not know what I just shared.

After my divorce 5 years ago, from my soulmate of 38 years, I went off the deep end. After an abstinance of 30 years from pot and alcohol, I accumulated three DWI in six months. I opted for drug rehab thru the VA. Consequently some of the skeletons from Cambodia surfaced. Not until last month did I deal with my demons. While waiting to give blood samples at VA medical, I struck up a conversation with the man sitting next to me. I casually mentioned that I served in the Air Force in Cambodia as a mechanic on Puff the Magic Dragon. He looked directly in my eyes and said, "really".
"I was Deputy Commander of Special Operation in the Air Force at that time." That made him a Brigadier General. I was an E4, a buck sergeant. Until that point in time, I had never been able to talk about what I did. The damn broke and I unloaded my burden from all those years.
Several years ago, I talked to Paul B about co-authoring a book on those days. We both decided that it was too painful to dig up those feelings.
This is the extent of my war story details. I will not bring up these matters again. My therapist and friend charged me with making a public confession to unburden my soul.
It is completed. I will not return to those days again.
Patrick