Carbon Dosing & Skimmerless

Scotty,
You are broadcasting but you are not receiving. When bacteria grow, due to carbon dosing, do they not assimmilate both nitrate and phosphate. Would it not be conceivable to add nitrate and a carbon source to bring the bad boy, phosphate, down.
It is a differrent way to think.
Patrick

Excuse me?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19896935&postcount=1

As bacteria multiply, they convert the inorganic N and P ,commonly called nutrients( NO3 and PO4) in the hobby, to organic forms as part of their bodies or as by products.
 
If you have unmeasurable nitrates then they will limit bacterial growth. You have high phosphates .. Suggest you use GFO still and stop the carbon dosing.
How were you running the GFO previously? If you were to run Rowaphos in a hang-on reactor then you could bring the level of phosphates down to .03 in days.
Then disconnect the media so phosphates don't leach back into the system. This occurs quite often after a dramatic reduction and measurement after can make it appear like the media is not working.

Scotty,
I agree that Rowaphos will remove phosphate better than phosguard. I also stick by what I said about bactetia consuming phosphate in a nutrient recycle process. With increased bacteria growth, adding nitrate would increase the biological consumption of phosphate. For certain, the phosphate has not been removed from the system. The phosphate is recycled into bacteria biomass to feed the consumers in the tank. Yes, the bacteria are in the food web to feed the consumers, which includes coral.
Patrick
 
Scotty,
I also read the link which Tom authored. It was very detailed and consise. I still do not agree that GAC is a primary bacteria export mechanism. The primary role of GAC is to remove DOC, DISSOLVED ORGANIC CARBON. It is for chemical filtration.
Patrick
 
Scotty,
I also read the link which Tom authored. It was very detailed and consise. I still do not agree that GAC is a primary bacteria export mechanism. The primary role of GAC is to remove DOC, DISSOLVED ORGANIC CARBON. It is for chemical filtration.
Patrick

Not sure what primary means, but for many years I had significant bacterial accumulation on my GAC when dosing vinegar. I could even remove the GAC and rinse out a lot of the bacteria and return it to use. The existing bacteria remaining on the GAC presumably acted as a culture for more. :)
 
Patrick, your just messing with me. Lol
I'll let much more qualified people on here like Randy and Tom play the game with you. Time to take my ball and go home
 
Yes, I understand that. It would be similiar to using filter floss with an accumulation of bacteria on all surface areas. The primary function of GAC occurs internally within the extremely porus structure.

"Activated carbon will remove a wide variety of organic molecules by simply trapping them in the carbon pores (absorption) or by chemically bonding them (adsorption)."

One thing that surfaces to me from this discussion is to use filter floss in front of GAC to export bacteria and detritus.
Patrick
 
Well I only have one mangrove and it has maybe ten leaves. I will have to trim it. I plan to run a filter pad with carbon prebio media. The sand bed will be in a removal container about 8 by 10 and four or 5 inches deep and will be for nitrate reduction. I mean fluvial bio max 2 X 500 grams and large bioballs Above that. This will all be Above my 7 inch sump depth.
 
You have multiple nutrient processes in your system. If you choose to carbon dose, I would keep the skimmer. If you are not carbon dosing, I would leave the skimmer out of your design.
In my 135, I am sumpless & skimmerless with a 12" DSB and I started carbon dosing that tank 30 days ago.
Patrick
 
I was told DSB were only good till 8 inches and that anymore was useless. This could be untrue. I plan to run a skimmer on my tank
 
Whoever told you, they can not prove it. Just like I can not prove that anything above 8" is useful.

For me, it is functional. I start at 4" and slop up to a legde at 12". I will use it for growing true marine plants.
Patrick
 
Make sense to me common sense would say that the deeper the better.

2 miles is better than 1 mile?

Obviously that's hyperbole, but at some point extra depth becomes useless, and some folks that that it isn't very many inches.

Personally, I have no idea. I didn't think my deep sand beds (6-8" of fine oolitic aragonite) were doing much good or bad, so I removed them a few years ago. :)
 
2 miles is better than 1 mile?

Obviously that's hyperbole, but at some point extra depth becomes useless, and some folks that that it isn't very many inches.

Personally, I have no idea. I didn't think my deep sand beds (6-8" of fine oolitic aragonite) were doing much good or bad, so I removed them a few years ago. :)

Randy could you please describe your filtration system. I've picked up bits and pieces from other posts but would to read about it in one post.. As I am sure many others would.
 
Randy could you please describe your filtration system. I've picked up bits and pieces from other posts but would to read about it in one post.. As I am sure many others would.

Sure. Here's a copy and paste from a description I wrote up for another forum (minus the pictures). For filtration only, see the "systems" section:

In this thread, I thought I'd document my tank and the variety of methods I use on it.

It has been set up since 1995, but it moved from a 90 to a 120 at one point, got broken down and the rocks scrubbed at another, and rock has been added to it a couple of times.

As can be seen from the picture below from November of 2011, it is not, and never has been, an SPS-dominated tank. I generally prefer things that move around, lending more life to the tank. So LPS corals, anemones, etc.

The fish have obviously evolved over time.

Currently there are:

3 Azure Damselfish (Chrysiptera hemicyanea)
3 A. ocellaris (a long term trio)
1 Chelmon marginalis (a type of copper band butterfly)
1 yellow tang
1 one spot foxface (Siganus unimaculatus)

The clown trio lives currently in the blue gigantea anemone which is quite large, and may have been responsible for the decline of the green gigantea which thrived until the blue was added, then the green slowly declined ove ra few years until it died. The blue grew from a little one from Live Aquaria. The clowns have been spawning for at least a year.

The foxface was added to eradicate Caulerpa racemosa (which you can see seen in the background of the 2008 picture, to the left of the H. Crispa anemone).

The Chelmon marginalis was added to eradicate aiptasia, which is did a fabulous job at.

The two bubble corals (one a split from the other) have been in the tank many years (maybe 18?) and are now much bigger than the latest picture.

The big leather on the right grew from a tiny piece from a fellow reefer and was cut way back once.

I had a big school of green chromis, but they dwindled over the years. Same for anthias.

Systems

Top off water is RO/DI collected in 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans (plumbed together).

It is mixed with limewater in 3 x 44 gallon Brute cans (plumbed together), and pumped to the tank with a Reef Filler pump on a big float switch in the sump.

New salt water is mixed in 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans (plumbed together). I use Instant Ocean, and add to each batch about 100-150 ppm of magnesium (I don't measure it, I just add about the same amount each time). I maintain the tank at ~35 ppt (sg ~ 1.0264).

I use the new salt water for automated water changes using a dual head Reef Filler pump on a time so it changes about 1% daily spread over many 15 minute periods of the day. I mix the salt water for about 24 h then turn off the powerhead (unless I forget ) and let it sit unstirred. I never heat the new salt water, except in emergency need of a lot of water. The old water is sent down a basement sink drain.

Temperature is controlled with a whole bunch of ordinary heaters on two Dynasense temperature controllers.

In the summer, the water is cooled by sending cold tap water through a big coil of plastic tubing int he sump, and then out tot he yard to water plants. The flow is controlled by a solenoid connected to one of the temperature controllers.

Water coming down to the basement from the main tank enters the first of three 44 gallon Brute can refugia, at the bottom. It rises through mostly live rock with macroalgae growing in the top 2-10% of open space. The water leaves that can and enters the bottom of a second, essentially identical can. Water leaves that second can and enters the first 44 gallon Brute can of the sump (yes, I like Brute cans ).

In the first section fo the sump is the cooling coil, the skimmer inlet and outlet, a canister inlet and outlet, and another refugium inlet and outlet.

The skimmer is a ETS gemini 800 on an Iwaki 55RLT.
The canister I won at a MACNA raffle (along with a lot of other stuff) and it is filled with a mix of ROX GAC (from BRS) and GFO (from BRS).
The third refugium is mostly identical to the other two, but with less live rock (about 12-18" open water at the top with Caulerpa racemosa). It is fed by a powerhead and drains back tot he first sump section.

The second sump (44 gallon rute can) gets water from the first sump section. It has the heaters and temperature sensors for the temperature controller, and the outlet to the return pumps (two x Iwaki 40RLXT in series) that send water back upstairs to the main tank.

I dose vinegar into the water coming from the main tank to the first refugium, expecting that much of the bacteria growth will be on the rocks in the first two refugia. I dose it with a 1.1 mL per min BRS dosing pump. I dose it spread over the daylight hours, and I dose about 110 mL per day.

I dose iron and silicate about once a week (maybe less on silicate).

That's it on chemical dosing, since limewater top off supplies all calcium and alkalinity.

Believe it or not, the only things I measure any more are temperature (typically about 80-81 deg F) and salinity (aim for 35 ppt).

Foods

On the top of the second sump sits a nested set of two fish shipping boxes containing a 1.1 mL per min BRS dosing pump, a mix of Reef nutrition Arctipods and ROE (Real ocean Eggs0 and two frozen gallon jugs of water (keeping the foods cold). The pump is on a timer to deliver 1.1 mL about 10 times per day into the sump directly below it, so the fish get these foods many times per day.

When away, I also use two dry timers to deliver flake to the sump, but when home, I alternate daily between Rod's Food and Prime Reef Cubes (1 cube or a slightly bigger piece of Rods food each day). I feed the Rods food with a pipette to make sure the Chemon marginalis gets his share (he likes to pick at rocks, not chase food around the open water).

Lighting

Lights are 2 x 250w DE 10,000k mh lamps, overdriven by a dual PFO ballast.

The lamps are several years old, and whenever I replace one, I prefer the older look better as they are warmer and I'm not a fan of intense blue lighting.

i also have one 110 w VHO actinic that is also years old and probably ready to be replaced.

Then there are four lights with 2 x 9 w fluorescent u-tubes for morning and evening intensity ramps.

The walnut hood (matches the stand) has a very quiet fan slowly blowing the air out the top.

Current in the tank is supplied by 2-3 Tunze 6055 Streams (only 2 are presently in working order) on the Tunze timer.

Backup power to the Streams is provided by a DIY UPS using two big industrial batteries and an inverter from Radio Shack.
 
Thread title is carbon dosing and skimmerless.

Where does it go? Into the biological filter which includes bacteria, NPS, LPS, softies, macros and CUC which multiply & breed in the tank. When I nedd to export, I prune macro or coral frag and sell them.

To be blunt, nobody buys skimmate.
Patrick

I took a look at the video of your tank , frankly it looks like tank that has a few recent corals placed in it, that or the tank growth is very low? I do not see great growth and the fraging of coral to export nutrients as you stated, I actually looked at the tank and it reminds me of the under gravel filter tanks of old.
 
I took a look at the video of your tank , frankly it looks like tank that has a few recent corals placed in it, that or the tank growth is very low? I do not see great growth and the fraging of coral to export nutrients as you stated, I actually looked at the tank and it reminds me of the under gravel filter tanks of old.

Tank growth is very low. The 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with 30G mud macro refugium is very low maintenance and has been set up for 12 years. In my home I have 20 aquariums totaling close to 1000 gallons. An extended outside growout system includes 10K gallons that keeps me busy.

The fragging of coral was a generalization on nutrient export. While I do move coral around, the main nutrient export is macro prunning.

I have focused on my 135G lagoon biotheme tank that is sumpless and skimmerless to make the point of the experiment with carbon dosing. I will supply pictures in the next few days when I get some technical help. This tank has been set up for 2 1/2 years with the intent of growing true marine plant, thus the 12" sandbed on one end dropping down to 4" on the other end. This tank is in week five of dosing at a rate of 100 ml/day of 5% vinegar. In the last week, I have quardroupled my fish bioload:
5 small yellow tangs
1 small Kole tang
3 Mono Argentus
20 blue yellow tail damsels
10 Mollies of differrent colors.
The corals in this tank are mostly softies, LPS and sponges. Also in the mix are two sea apples and númerous micro feather dusters.

At present there is no nutrient export which also includes no water change protocoal since the tank has been set up. At present I do not test the water and add iron, iodine and a kelp concentrate for micro nutrients and trace minerals.
The only nutrient export occurs with the use of GAC. With the added bioload,
I am considering bringing in some aged water from my outside growout systems for partial water change to balance out water chemistry. It is easier to do that than to try and test for all the other elements.
Patrick
 
2 miles is better than 1 mile?

Obviously that's hyperbole, but at some point extra depth becomes useless, and some folks that that it isn't very many inches.

Personally, I have no idea. I didn't think my deep sand beds (6-8" of fine oolitic aragonite) were doing much good or bad, so I removed them a few years ago. :)

Randy,
Yes, I agree that from the point of view of biological anorobic filtration, it is ineffective after 8". The 12" sandbed is functional for a differrent reason. It hides a laundry basket full of a fresh water substrate high in iron. It will also grow true marine plants.
Patrick
 
Sure. Here's a copy and paste from a description I wrote up for another forum (minus the pictures). For filtration only, see the "systems" section:

In this thread, I thought I'd document my tank and the variety of methods I use on it.

It has been set up since 1995, but it moved from a 90 to a 120 at one point, got broken down and the rocks scrubbed at another, and rock has been added to it a couple of times.

As can be seen from the picture below from November of 2011, it is not, and never has been, an SPS-dominated tank. I generally prefer things that move around, lending more life to the tank. So LPS corals, anemones, etc.

The fish have obviously evolved over time.

Currently there are:

3 Azure Damselfish (Chrysiptera hemicyanea)
3 A. ocellaris (a long term trio)
1 Chelmon marginalis (a type of copper band butterfly)
1 yellow tang
1 one spot foxface (Siganus unimaculatus)

The clown trio lives currently in the blue gigantea anemone which is quite large, and may have been responsible for the decline of the green gigantea which thrived until the blue was added, then the green slowly declined ove ra few years until it died. The blue grew from a little one from Live Aquaria. The clowns have been spawning for at least a year.

The foxface was added to eradicate Caulerpa racemosa (which you can see seen in the background of the 2008 picture, to the left of the H. Crispa anemone).

The Chelmon marginalis was added to eradicate aiptasia, which is did a fabulous job at.

The two bubble corals (one a split from the other) have been in the tank many years (maybe 18?) and are now much bigger than the latest picture.

The big leather on the right grew from a tiny piece from a fellow reefer and was cut way back once.

I had a big school of green chromis, but they dwindled over the years. Same for anthias.

Systems

Top off water is RO/DI collected in 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans (plumbed together).

It is mixed with limewater in 3 x 44 gallon Brute cans (plumbed together), and pumped to the tank with a Reef Filler pump on a big float switch in the sump.

New salt water is mixed in 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans (plumbed together). I use Instant Ocean, and add to each batch about 100-150 ppm of magnesium (I don't measure it, I just add about the same amount each time). I maintain the tank at ~35 ppt (sg ~ 1.0264).

I use the new salt water for automated water changes using a dual head Reef Filler pump on a time so it changes about 1% daily spread over many 15 minute periods of the day. I mix the salt water for about 24 h then turn off the powerhead (unless I forget ) and let it sit unstirred. I never heat the new salt water, except in emergency need of a lot of water. The old water is sent down a basement sink drain.

Temperature is controlled with a whole bunch of ordinary heaters on two Dynasense temperature controllers.

In the summer, the water is cooled by sending cold tap water through a big coil of plastic tubing int he sump, and then out tot he yard to water plants. The flow is controlled by a solenoid connected to one of the temperature controllers.

Water coming down to the basement from the main tank enters the first of three 44 gallon Brute can refugia, at the bottom. It rises through mostly live rock with macroalgae growing in the top 2-10% of open space. The water leaves that can and enters the bottom of a second, essentially identical can. Water leaves that second can and enters the first 44 gallon Brute can of the sump (yes, I like Brute cans ).

In the first section fo the sump is the cooling coil, the skimmer inlet and outlet, a canister inlet and outlet, and another refugium inlet and outlet.

The skimmer is a ETS gemini 800 on an Iwaki 55RLT.
The canister I won at a MACNA raffle (along with a lot of other stuff) and it is filled with a mix of ROX GAC (from BRS) and GFO (from BRS).
The third refugium is mostly identical to the other two, but with less live rock (about 12-18" open water at the top with Caulerpa racemosa). It is fed by a powerhead and drains back tot he first sump section.

The second sump (44 gallon rute can) gets water from the first sump section. It has the heaters and temperature sensors for the temperature controller, and the outlet to the return pumps (two x Iwaki 40RLXT in series) that send water back upstairs to the main tank.

I dose vinegar into the water coming from the main tank to the first refugium, expecting that much of the bacteria growth will be on the rocks in the first two refugia. I dose it with a 1.1 mL per min BRS dosing pump. I dose it spread over the daylight hours, and I dose about 110 mL per day.

I dose iron and silicate about once a week (maybe less on silicate).

That's it on chemical dosing, since limewater top off supplies all calcium and alkalinity.

Believe it or not, the only things I measure any more are temperature (typically about 80-81 deg F) and salinity (aim for 35 ppt).

Foods

On the top of the second sump sits a nested set of two fish shipping boxes containing a 1.1 mL per min BRS dosing pump, a mix of Reef nutrition Arctipods and ROE (Real ocean Eggs0 and two frozen gallon jugs of water (keeping the foods cold). The pump is on a timer to deliver 1.1 mL about 10 times per day into the sump directly below it, so the fish get these foods many times per day.

When away, I also use two dry timers to deliver flake to the sump, but when home, I alternate daily between Rod's Food and Prime Reef Cubes (1 cube or a slightly bigger piece of Rods food each day). I feed the Rods food with a pipette to make sure the Chemon marginalis gets his share (he likes to pick at rocks, not chase food around the open water).

Lighting

Lights are 2 x 250w DE 10,000k mh lamps, overdriven by a dual PFO ballast.

The lamps are several years old, and whenever I replace one, I prefer the older look better as they are warmer and I'm not a fan of intense blue lighting.

i also have one 110 w VHO actinic that is also years old and probably ready to be replaced.

Then there are four lights with 2 x 9 w fluorescent u-tubes for morning and evening intensity ramps.

The walnut hood (matches the stand) has a very quiet fan slowly blowing the air out the top.

Current in the tank is supplied by 2-3 Tunze 6055 Streams (only 2 are presently in working order) on the Tunze timer.

Backup power to the Streams is provided by a DIY UPS using two big industrial batteries and an inverter from Radio Shack.

Randy,
Thank you for the post. What a marvelous system! I had previously enjoyed a post you made about using cold groundwater as a heat export mechanism, that also allowed you to water your yard. I did that in Louisiana when I was coupled with the Chichot Aquifer at 68 degrees at 100' well depth. In my present configuration, I made a major design mistake assuming ground water temperature from 900' would be at least as cool. I was so wrong with water coming up at 81 degrees. I had to completely redesign my heat removal equation and solely rely on evaporative cooling with more than 100G evaporated each day during Texas summer days > 100 degrees.
I so much appreciate your insightful post. Thank you again for your contribution to this marvelous hobby.
Patrick
 
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