Carbon Dosing & Skimmerless

[Subsea]

What have you implied?

What have you implied?

I took a look at the video of your tank , frankly it looks like tank that has a few recent corals placed in it, that or the tank growth is very low? I do not see great growth and the fraging of coral to export nutrients as you stated, I actually looked at the tank and it reminds me of the under gravel filter tanks of old.

The video was taken with no changes to the tank in over 2 years. Frankly, I do not know what ugf tanks of old look like, as a general rule. Perhapes you could define that statement better.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2446149

Post #6 is a 100G tank that has an undergravel filter and has been set up for 41 years. It belongs to Paul B. Does it look like the tanks of old that you refered to.
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

Randy,
Thank you for the post. What a marvelous system! I had previously enjoyed a post you made about using cold groundwater as a heat export mechanism, that also allowed you to water your yard. I did that in Louisiana when I was coupled with the Chichot Aquifer at 68 degrees at 100' well depth. In my present configuration, I made a major design mistake assuming ground water temperature from 900' would be at least as cool. I was so wrong with water coming up at 81 degrees. I had to completely redesign my heat removal equation and solely rely on evaporative cooling with more than 100G evaporated each day during Texas summer days > 100 degrees.
I so much appreciate your insightful post. Thank you again for your contribution to this marvelous hobby.
Patrick

Randy, thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed description of your system. As always you continue to be so so helpful to your fellow refers.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome and thanks.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
Thank you for the post. What a marvelous system! I had previously enjoyed a post you made about using cold groundwater as a heat export mechanism, that also allowed you to water your yard. I did that in Louisiana when I was coupled with the Chichot Aquifer at 68 degrees at 100' well depth. In my present configuration, I made a major design mistake assuming ground water temperature from 900' would be at least as cool. I was so wrong with water coming up at 81 degrees. I had to completely redesign my heat removal equation and solely rely on evaporative cooling with more than 100G evaporated each day during Texas summer days > 100 degrees.
I so much appreciate your insightful post. Thank you again for your contribution to this marvelous hobby.
Patrick

Thanks.

You mean well water comes up at 81 deg F? That would surprise me too!

Maybe you live above an old volcano.

 

[Aquarist007]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2446149

Post #6 is a 100G tank that has an undergravel filter and has been set up for 41 years. It belongs to Paul B. Does it look like the tanks of old that you refered to.
Patrick

Not quite. Paul'S is a reverse under gravel filter.

 

[Subsea]

Not quite. Paul'S is a reverse under gravel filter.

Thank you for the insight.

 

[Subsea]

Thanks.

You mean well water comes up at 81 deg F? That would surprise me too!

Maybe you live above an old volcano.

The Edwards Plateau Limestone formation covers 1/3 of Texas. The Middle Trinity Aquifer is definitely connected to geothermal vents. At times, the sulphur smell is very strong.

Randy,
How would I tell the difference between elemental sulphur or sulphide bacteria?

 

[Subsea]

Ward Laboratories water analysis for Middle Trinity Aquifer at 900'.

Iron related bacteria, cfu/ml @ 500
pH 7.8
pHc 6.7
Sodium Adsorbtion Ratio 0.9
Adjiusted SAR 1.0
TDS, estimated, ppm 888
Electrical conductivity, mmho/cm
Cations/Anions, me/L

Na, ppm 55
K, ppm 14
Ca, ppm 130
Mg, ppm 102
Total Hardness, CaCO3, ppm 750
NO3-N, ppm < 0.1
SO4-S, ppm 189
Cl, ppm 34
CO3, ppm < 1
HCO3, ppm 346
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3, ppm 283
Boran, ppm 0.33
Total Nitrogen, ppm 2
Ortho Phosphate, ppm < 0.01
Total Phosphate, ppm < 0.01
Fe, ppm 0.02
Mn, ppm <0.01
NO2-N, ppm < 0.1

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
How would I tell the difference between elemental sulphur or sulphide bacteria?

I'm not sure what you are asking, but assuming it is how to tell if the water has certain species in it, I can't answer that. It may be possible to tell with a microscope, but it may not, and may require more extensive evaluation.

 

[Subsea]

Randy,
I want to know the source of the hydrogen sulphide smell. Is it elementary sulphur or is it hydrogen sulphide from anarobic bacteria.
Patrick

 

[mxett]

just an update, after dosing 0.3ml of NOPOX (methanol and acetic acid) per day on my skimmerless nano my phosphate has dropped from 0.16 to 0.04 in 9 days. My nitrate remains undetected. No corals are showing any ill-affects and the hair algae issue seems to be receeding as well.

 

[Subsea]

just an update, after dosing 0.3ml of NOPOX (methanol and acetic acid) per day on my skimmerless nano my phosphate has dropped from 0.16 to 0.04 in 9 days. My nitrate remains undetected. No corals are showing any ill-affects and the hair algae issue seems to be receeding as well.

Outstanding. Can you provide more details on coral and fish bioload? Pictures would help. Also, can I use your information details in an article that I am writing for a quarterly hobiest magazine?
You may want to consider increasing your food/nutrient input. Your phosphate concentration is in acceptable range. How sensitive is your nitrate test kit?
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

Tank is young in its cycle

Tank is young in its cycle

This is an interesting topic, thanks for starting it.

After some 'google' research on this topic I've decided to given carbon dosing a go on my skimmerless nano (80ltr). I've ready a few threads where people have successfully used biopellets or used vitamin C dosing without skimmers, so I'm hoping with caution it may prove beneficial.

My small reef has been running for about 3 months. Its a mixed reef with about 5kg of live rock, shallow aragonite sand bed, two small fish, a turbo snail, 3 SPS and 5 small soft corals. The reason I'm trying this is because I am struggling to get on top of some hair algae which began during startup. My nitrate has been undetectable (redsea pro) for weeks but my phosphate is 0.16 (redsea pro). I've used some phosguard which hasnt made a difference.

I've started dosing 0.4ml of NOPOX, which is half the minimum recommended dose for my tank size.

As far as bacteria export goes I suppose I'll be relying on predation from sponges and such existing on the live rock. I have also been performing an 8% water change every second day which will help export some phosphate and bacteria at the same time. My water changes are using RO/DI water and red seas salt.

I've successfully used carbon dosing on a larger system before, but this tank had a skimmer. One obvious area of concern when carbon dosing is oxygen depletion. However I tend to run my tanks at 23 degrees Celsius (with no ill-effects). Do you think running a tank at this lower temperature, with the increase in dissolved oxygen it provides, will be enough to offset any depletion due to bacteria consumption?

Having run natural systems for most of my 45 years of reef keeping, I consider 3 months early in the maturing cycle of your tank. A progression of differrent algaes are normal in my opinion. Is your makeup water all synthetic salt mix? Consider adding water from a mature system or better, use natural salt water from the ocean.
Just a thought.
Patrick

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
I want to know the source of the hydrogen sulphide smell. Is it elementary sulphur or is it hydrogen sulphide from anarobic bacteria.
Patrick

What you are smelling is likely hydrogen sulfide, not elemental sulfur.

How exactly it got to be hydrogen sulfide is hard to say, but sulfide minerals can be present in well water.

 

[mxett]

Outstanding. Can you provide more details on coral and fish bioload? Pictures would help. Also, can I use your information details in an article that I am writing for a quarterly hobiest magazine?
You may want to consider increasing your food/nutrient input. Your phosphate concentration is in acceptable range. How sensitive is your nitrate test kit?
Patrick

bioload is light with only 3 fish, 2 sps, 2 lps and 5 soft corals. yes you coild use my info if you like. As far as increasing feeding im going to wait until the hair algae has all but gone before i try this. Test kits used are Red Sea pro

 

[Subsea]

bioload is light with only 3 fish, 2 sps, 2 lps and 5 soft corals. yes you coild use my info if you like. As far as increasing feeding im going to wait until the hair algae has all but gone before i try this. Test kits used are Red Sea pro

Lettuce Nudibrance works good for me.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

I am presently carbon dosing 12 aquariums in my home at about 700 gallons total capacity. Only my 75G Jauert Plenum has a sump (30G mud & macro refugium). I was dealing with a GHA epidemic in my 75G before I begin the carbon dosing. I am using urchins, Emerald crabs and lettuce Nudibrances to fight this war.

I begin carbon dosing my 3 year old 135G lagoon on 9/1/14. I started with 25ml per day. At week two, I increased viegar dose to 50 ml per day. At week three, I increased dose to 75ml per day and at four weeks I settled on 100 ml per day (about .8 ml per gallon of 5% strength vinegar). I have tripled the fish bioload in this tank. I have added some sponges and will focus on adding more sponges.
With the exception of nitrogen gas as a byproduct of denitrification bacteria, I have zero nutrient export. No water changes and no protein skimming. So, where is carbon and food going. It is going into the biomass of fish, sponges, macroalgae and corals. With this high nutrient system, it is necessary to provide grazers for micro and Macroalgae. Brackish water Mono Argentus and Mollies provide constant grazing as well as urchins, Lettuce Nudibranchs and Emerad Crabs. Added insurance against photoplankton blooms is provided by a 70W UV sterilizer.
What happens to bactetia after passing through UV sterilizer? A bug doctor friend of mine tells me that the membrane that encases the bacteria is ruptured with no damage to the nutritional value of the bacteria: bacteria gumbo was his words. To consume this gumbo, I will add more sponges, flame scallops and filter feeders in general.

After eight weeks of skimmerless carbon dosing, I am very encouraged with results. I see many more micro filter feeders as well as increased polyp extention of corals in general.

I recently expanded operations at Aquaculture Ranch with a business partner that will assist me with picture posting and utube vidioes. Tank pictures will be forthcoming within the next week.
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

I am presently carbon dosing 12 aquariums in my home at about 700 gallons total capacity. Only my 75G Jauert Plenum has a sump (30G mud & macro refugium). I was dealing with a GHA epidemic in my 75G before I begin the carbon dosing. I am using urchins, Emerald crabs and lettuce Nudibrances to fight this war.

I begin carbon dosing my 3 year old 135G lagoon on 9/1/14. I started with 25ml per day. At week two, I increased viegar dose to 50 ml per day. At week three, I increased dose to 75ml per day and at four weeks I settled on 100 ml per day (about .8 ml per gallon of 5% strength vinegar). I have tripled the fish bioload in this tank. I have added some sponges and will focus on adding more sponges.
With the exception of nitrogen gas as a byproduct of denitrification bacteria, I have zero nutrient export. No water changes and no protein skimming. So, where is carbon and food going. It is going into the biomass of fish, sponges, macroalgae and corals. With this high nutrient system, it is necessary to provide grazers for micro and Macroalgae. Brackish water Mono Argentus and Mollies provide constant grazing as well as urchins, Lettuce Nudibranchs and Emerad Crabs. Added insurance against photoplankton blooms is provided by a 70W UV sterilizer.
What happens to bactetia after passing through UV sterilizer? A bug doctor friend of mine tells me that the membrane that encases the bacteria is ruptured with no damage to the nutritional value of the bacteria: bacteria gumbo was his words. To consume this gumbo, I will add more sponges, flame scallops and filter feeders in general.

After eight weeks of skimmerless carbon dosing, I am very encouraged with results. I see many more micro filter feeders as well as increased polyp extention of corals in general.

I recently expanded operations at Aquaculture Ranch with a business partner that will assist me with picture posting and utube vidioes. Tank pictures will be forthcoming within the next week.
Patrick

Glad to here the experiment is going well Patrick
Equally in your length of time I have discontinued GAC, Gfo and sterilizer.
I am still continuing to dose 10ml vodka to the tank
I have let phosphates rise to .02 and nitrates to 2. The macro algae in the refugium has shown increased growth
However the water in the display tank although clear, just doesn't have that pristine clarity in the last week.
I'll probably have to run some gac for a few days but am puzzled why I should have to . Any thoughts ?

 

[Subsea]

I run GAC 24/7. Considering the byproducts of the ongoing biology and chemistry in our reef tanks, it is normal for dissolved organic carbon (DOC)to build up. Over time this will discolor the water. Partial water changes will dilute DOC. Granulated activated carbon will remove DOC from the water. I use small amounts replaced weekly.
Patrick