Caribbean Coral Bleaching

onereefnotenuf,

The reason you notice a downward trend is because there probaly is one. We're currently going over the peak of a 30 year warming cycle. The last one was in 1938 which compares to 1998. The climate then trended downward until the 70's where we experianced record colds and began climbing again in 1978. I would suspect that the Earth will cool now for the next 30 years. I have no idea what the Global Warming crowd is going to say then. But it'll be fun to watch.

Oh and the 60 years cycle has been examined over at least 4 cycles. Been running like clockwork.

Mike
 
Hi Onereef,

1997 was definitely a hot year. Subsequent years (other than maybe 2005...I'll have to check to see if it was hotter or not) were not as hot, but there are two important points to consider. Firstly, a few years, even a decade, are not enough to predict a change in climate. Secondly, while 1998-2004 were cooler than 1997, they were still hotter than almost every other year this century. In other words, compared to 1997 these years don't seem hot, but compared to every year before that for at least the last 150 years (and probably for thousands of years) those years were much hotter. 1997 was just the hottest of many recent hot years. The trend for the past 150 years has been a warming climate. Before that period the global average was pretty stable, and the geologic record shows that global mean temperature doesn't usually change very quickly (i.e., the increase this century in global mean historically happens at about 10% this rate).

Looking at the temperature measurements for the last 150 years though, of which we have at thousands of sites every year, we can see that there is an obvious warming trend from about 1850 to the 1940s. From the 1940s-70s there is a slight cooling trend due to what's been called global dimming. Soot and aeresols in the air from factories/cars/etc. literally shaded the Earth and reflected sunlight. We've also measured that. I think there's been about a 10% reduction in solar radiation hitting the surface, if I recall correctly. Since the 70's though, when we passed the Clean Air Act our air has gotten cleaner and the effect of dimming has disappeared. Since then we've been warming again.

Mike,

Since you seem more intent on insulting me than debating respectfully I will ask you to provide evidence that 1. the world has not warmed, 2. if there is warming human activities have not been the major cause, and 3. (the reason this thread was started) ocean warming does not cause coral bleaching. Again, I'm looking for evidence, not opinion nor anecdote. I don't care to see any more editorials. All of these are moot. If you have evidence for any of these three please post it so we all can take a look. If you don't then please don't pursue this further. I've provided tangible evidence to support my view. All I ask is that you do the same.

Best regards,

Chris Jury
 
So there you go, get rid of the tree huggers and the temps would go back down. That is what you stated correct? Since the clean air act the temperatures have increased.
Since the clean air act, all facotries, manufacturers had to abide by them, but what about NASA??????
I lift off equals several years of pollution of the entire nation, yet they send off how many a year?????? Who cares about what other planets are doing, why not invest the money into something that we need more information about, this planet?
 
Thanks for you're responses. It seems that over the last 30 years the temperatures are rising overall even with the short decrease at the end. my question is if we have been keeping accurate temperature records for only 150 years or so, is it possible that this recent upward trend is something that could have occurred naturally in the past and we just don't have enough data to confirm it? I don't consider myself a hard core believer of global warming but there does seem to be enough data supporting it to cause concern.On the other hand with such a short period of accurate record keeping I understand why some scientists are not convinced.

Snowrider,
Where did you get the information that a NASA rocket somehow equals the pollution produced by the nation for several years? If that were true wouldn't the ecological groups be throwing a fit?
If we are unable to keep this planet livable, our great grandchildren might be happy that we found a way to exist somewhere else in the solar system.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7212213#post7212213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onereefnotenuf
. my question is if we have been keeping accurate temperature records for only 150 years or so, is it possible that this recent upward trend is something that could have occurred naturally in the past and we just don't have enough data to confirm it? I don't consider myself a hard core believer of global warming but there does seem to be enough data supporting it to cause concern.On the other hand with such a short period of accurate record keeping I understand why some scientists are not convinced.
For things like global mean temperature - we may not have such long-term measurements.

But if you start looking at things like glacial ice cores [which can record differences in CO2 level, precipitation, among other things], pollen cores [which can record vegetation changes, I know the middle east goes back 10,000 years+] ... while we don't know temperature per se, we can see that rainfall patterns [based on vegetation] have changed in many places, we can see that CO2 levels are higher than they have been since the last interglacial period [1 million +].

When it gets down to it, significant climate change might not be reflected in any one statistical measure. Nevermind the original question of Caribbean coral bleaching may not be reflected in mean surface temperature or such.

Thus statistics are used with an agenda to prove/disprove things that may or may not be significant with the data used. Like in all science, you just might find some divergent opinion saying that cigarettes are good for you ;)
That's where consensus of those who study the field comes in handy ... as I'm sure I can find `scientists' that might sign something disputing cigarettes negative health implications - but I'd bet you'd find a lot less M.D.'s signing that same petition.

When I see `climate' petitions signed by lots of M.D.'s ... I question that the same way I would medical petitions signed by lots of geologists and climatologists.
Then again, I should admit my bias as someone who minored in geology in grad school :D
 
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Good post Mark. It shows a consideration of all evidence. In your mind the preponderance supports Global Climate change. This is what I've arguing for the entire time even though I've somehow gotten trapped into presenting the opposing viewpoint. Mostly by my love of arguing. I would part from you only in a semantic way, statistics do not prove anything. Statistics are a way to present data. Statistics Don't Prove Cause and Effect. Example: EPA claimed in 1996 that fine particulate air pollution kills 20,000 Americans annually. The basis for the estimate was a statistical study comparing death rates among geographic areas with varying levels of pollution. There were no clinical evaluations of any of the deaths included in the study and the researchers didn't know whether air pollution caused or contributed to any of the deaths or have any idea of how much fine particulate pollution any study subject inhaled. So bascially they made a scientific conclusion with no scientific evidence, only statistics. Never confuse statistics with science.

Chris,

I am sorry you felt insulted. It stems from a frustration that you argue against my points with very little knowledge of the subject as demostrated by your obvious lack of understanding of statistics, something that I am very well trained in and use on a daily basis. You do not argue against the data by providing contrary data, you attack the source of the data, not the collecting method or the validity mind you, you look for an underlying political agenda and if one isn't found you simply assume there is one. Or you ignore it all together.

I've provided tangible evidence to support my view.

You have made claims without any supporting evidence, no links, footnnotes, or sources. An example is your most recent claim of global dimming. Yes I watched Nova too. The theory was offered by a single scientist and subsequently picked up by others who are investigating the phenomenon. It has not yet been accepted by your "consensus" of scientists, yet you present it as fact to explain why the predictions of computer models of global warming have been wrong. And of course your claim of global dimming was not sourced. We are supposed to take the explanation of a college student (not a scientist) on faith. Anyway I think I've made my points on this. A thinking person can choose to agree or disagree. I'm done. I'll just leave you with this:

I have tryed to explain that a direct relationship of CO2 and Temps could not be demonstrated, yet look at the relationship between the Sun's energy and temps:

untitled1.jpg


So is the earth warming due to increased CO2 or increased sun activity? Another part of scientific method is removing all other plausible explanations.

and of course these gems:

"We have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest."


Stephen Schneider (leading advocate of the global warming theory)
(in interview for Discover magazine, Oct 1989)

"Researchers pound the global-warming drum because they know there is politics and, therefore, money behind it. . . I've been critical of global warming and am persona non grata."


Dr. William Gray
(Professor of Atmospheric Sciences at Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado and leading expert of hurricane prediction )
(in an interview for the Denver Rocky Mountain News, November 28, 1999)

"In the long run, the replacement of the precise and disciplined language of science by the misleading language of litigation and advocacy may be one of the more important sources of damage to society incurred in the current debate over global warming."


Dr. Richard S. Lindzen
(leading climate and atmospheric science expert- MIT) (3)

Good Luck on your Acedemia, wish I was back in college.

Sincerely,

Mike
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7212672#post7212672 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
For things like global mean temperature - we may not have such long-term measurements.

But if you start looking at things like glacial ice cores [which can record differences in CO2 level, precipitation, among other things], pollen cores [which can record vegetation changes, I know the middle east goes back 10,000 years+] ... while we don't know temperature per se, we can see that rainfall patterns [based on vegetation] have changed in many places, we can see that CO2 levels are higher than they have been since the last interglacial period [1 million +].


We are in an interglacial period now correct? I would imagine by anybody's standards that a million plus years is a long time for a climate situation to repeat itself. The high CO2 levels back then could be attributed to volcanic activity. Now it is (what is that fancy word you guys use ?) "anthropogenic" reasons for the increased CO2. I seem to remember reading something about natural causes for the CO2 increase but I can't find it right now.
"scientific consensus" is an oxymoron in my opinion. nothing but the most basic scientific facts are unanimously accepted. This subject is hotly contested because of the political issues involved.I would like to find a concise easy to read conclusion on the reasons why global warming is or isn't a reality. I really appreciate all the info that MCARY,MiddletonMark and MCsaxmaster have set forth because I have learned more about this subject from this thread than everything else I have read,watched.listened to.I am in over my head with you guys so I am going to sit back and lurk so I can learn some more!
thanks again.
 
I am sorry you felt insulted. It stems from a frustration that you argue against my points with very little knowledge of the subject as demostrated by your obvious lack of understanding of statistics

Now why would I feel insulted :rolleyes:

As for the graph you posted, it doesn't disagree with what I've been saying nor does it disagree with the data I posted. In fact, it agrees.

As can be seen in the first graph from the IPCC, natural forcing (including fluctuation in solar radiation) can explain some of the observed warming for the early part of this century, though it cannot explain the warming that has occured more recently. Quoting their 2001 report

"There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities. Detection and attribution studies consistently find evidence for an anthropogenic signal in the climate record of the last 35 to 50 years. These studies include uncertainties in forcing due to anthropogenic sulfate aerosols and natural factors (volcanoes and solar irradiance)..."

"The sulfate and natural forcings are negative over
this period and cannot explain the warming
; whereas most of these studies find that, over the last 50 years, the estimated rate and magnitude of warming due to increasing greenhouse gases alone are comparable with, or larger than, the observed warming. The best agreement between model simulations and observations over the last 140 years has been found when all the above anthropogenic and natural forcing factors are combined, as shown in Figure SPM-2." (bold added)

There is no question that natural forcing has contributed a small amount to the warming over this century, mostly during the first half, but there is also no question that natural forcing alone, including solar radiation, cannot explain the warming that has happened in the last 30 years. Most of the increase has been during that period too.

Onreef,

Yes, we are in an interglacial period right now. There are a lot of reasons that CO2, CH4, and N2O are high during warm periods and low during cold ones. As you're getting at, it doesn't really matter if the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere go up because phytoplankton growth in the southern ocean is low or because we've burned a lot of fossil fuels--more greenhouse gases is more greenhouse gases, regardless of where they come from.

As for the use of the term "consensus," the darn thing has two definitions which are similar, though different. Often the word consensus is used to mean 100% agreement by a group, but it also is used to mean "general agreement or accord" (thefreedictionary.com). As such, because the vast majority of a group agrees on something, whatever that is, there is said to be a consensus, even if there are a few dissenters. It's sort of like the question of reasonable doubt. Of course there is always doubt in everything, but is it reasonable to doubt something given the evidence.

For a good book to explain all the dynamics of global warming I'd suggest Global Warming: The Complete Briefing by John Houghton as your best, most understandable, most up-to-date source. The most recent publication is 2004.

Also, as Mark said above, we have direct temperature measurements for the last ~150 years. Before that we have to use references to infer what the temperature was since no one actually measured it. For this people use tree rings, cores from coral reefs, ice cores, etc. There are certain relationships, especially in the ratios of certain isotopes, that depend highly on temperature. While not as good as a thermometer measurement, when 1000's of samples all come out the same all around the world, one can assume that they've got a pretty accurate depiction. Check out the temp. record for the last 1000 yrs.
05.16.jpg


Best,

Chris
 
Firstly, a few years, even a decade, are not enough to predict a change in climate

natural forcing (including fluctuation in solar radiation) can explain some of the observed warming for the early part of this century, though it cannot explain the warming that has occured more recently.
 
"Myth #1: Scientists Agree the Earth Is Warming. While ground-level temperature measurements suggest the earth has warmed between 0.3 and 0.6 degrees Celsius since 1850, global satellite data, the most reliable of climate measure-
ments, show no evidence of warming during the past 18 years. [See Figure I.] Even if the earth's temperature has increased slightly, the increase is well within the natural range of known temperature variation over the last 15,000 years. Indeed, the earth experienced greater warming between the 10th and 15th centuries - a time when vineyards thrived in England and Vikings colonized Greenland and built settlements in Canada. "


untitled3.jpg


"Myth #2: Humans Are Causing Global Warming. Scientists do not agree that humans discernibly influence global climate because the evidence supporting that theory is weak. The scientific experts most directly concerned with climate conditions reject the theory by a wide margin.


A Gallup poll found that only 17 percent of the members of the Meteorological Society and the American Geophysical Society think that the warming of the 20th century has been a result of greenhouse gas emissions - principally CO2 from burning fossil fuels. [See Figure II.]

Only 13 percent of the scientists responding to a survey conducted by the environmental organization Greenpeace believe catastrophic climate change will result from continuing current patterns of energy use.

More than 100 noted scientists, including the former president of the National Academy of Sciences, signed a letter declaring that costly actions to reduce greenhouse gases are not justified by the best available evidence.
While atmospheric carbon dioxide has increased by 28 percent over the past 150 years, human-generated carbon dioxide could have played only a small part in any warming, since most of the warming occurred prior to 1940 - before most human-caused carbon dioxide emissions."


untitled4.jpg
 
I'm afraid you're mistaken about the satelite measurements, as explained here

Check out a dataset here

The following organizations have officially endorsed the conclusions of the third assesment by the IPCC

Academia Brasiliera de Ciências (Bazil)
Royal Society of Canada
Chinese Academy of Sciences
Academié des Sciences (France)
Deutsche Akademie der Naturforscher Leopoldina (Germany)
Indian National Science Academy
Accademia dei Lincei (Italy)
Science Council of Japan
Russian Academy of Sciences
Royal Society (United Kingdom)
National Academy of Sciences (United States of America)
Australian Academy of Sciences
Royal Flemish Academy of Belgium for Sciences and the Arts
Caribbean Academy of Sciences
Indonesian Academy of Sciences
Royal Irish Academy
Academy of Sciences Malaysia
Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand
Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences

See also http://nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf and http://www.royalsociety.org/displaypagedoc.asp?id=13619

Additionally, the following institutions officially endorse the same view

NASA's GISS
NOAA
The National Academy of Sciences
The EPA
The American Geophysical Union
National Center for Atmopsheric Research (NCAR)
American Meteorological Society
The Royal Society (UK)
Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society here

Best,

Chris
 
Green House effect: The phenomenon whereby the earth's atmosphere traps solar radiation, caused by the presence in the atmosphere of gases such as carbon dioxide, water vapor, and methane that allow incoming sunlight to pass through but absorb heat radiated back from the earth's surface.

Result, lower stratosphere warms before surface.

Taken directly from NASA website. Data from NASA's microwave sounding unit:

18593strato_temp.gif
 
MCary,

dude, what are you talking about? you haven't the foggiest idea what's going on. the earth is dying and we are killing her. now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to go fly my eurocopter on my PPL and make some money.

R.W.
 
your charts and graphs mean nothing. the earth is getting hotter. its indisputable, and we are the cause of it. you're wrong abou this just like you were wrong about not being able to make money with a private license. i've already make 500 euros this year alone.

ok ok, i just can't do it anymore. i want to kick my own butt. sorry Mike, just funnin' ya. its a slow day and i'm bored.
Bobby
 
Mike,

At the link I posted you'll see that they explain just what you've posted. While the trophosphere and thus the surface has shown distinct warming, the stratosphere has not shown the same pattern. The graph you posted is in agreement with what I've said, not disagreement.

Best,

Chris
 
we now return you to your normally scheduled coral reef and global warming discussions. have a great weekend Mike!

Bobby
 
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