Carlson Surge Device?
- Thread starter happyclam
- Start date
tom obrecht
Active member
I set one up years ago. They have plus and minus's.
On the plus side they are reliable and add nice motion.
On the minus side they do add alot of bubbles to the tank (as well as add to your salt creep), are noisey and need some additional room for the surge tank itself.
If you have the extra room, don't mind the bubbles and noise I would say go for it. It is tough to replicate the water motion that these can provide.
On the plus side they are reliable and add nice motion.
On the minus side they do add alot of bubbles to the tank (as well as add to your salt creep), are noisey and need some additional room for the surge tank itself.
If you have the extra room, don't mind the bubbles and noise I would say go for it. It is tough to replicate the water motion that these can provide.
I experimented with some modifications on a CSD a few years ago and wrote it up in my "Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques" book - here is the excerpt: (It has a couple of clues for a DIY person to follow to reduce bubbles)
Surge tank
Often called a Carlson Surge Device or CSD (After Bruce Carlson of the Georgia Aquarium) this device creates a crashing flow of water that very closely simulates wave action in shallow water. These devices consist of a tank of water above the aquarium. Water is pumped into the tank. As the water level rises to the top, an internal siphon inside the tank begins to flow. The siphon is much faster at draining the tank as the pump is in filling it. All of the water in the tank therefore rushes out of the siphon until the tank drains and the siphon action breaks when it “catches airâ€Â. The pump (running all the time) then refills the tank and the cycle repeats itself. To build one of these it is best to follow someone else’s proven design. Pump flow rate, surge tank size, the height above the water and diameter of the siphon tube are all variables that need to be closely controlled or the unit will not operate properly. Even when they are well designed, these surge devices have a bad reputation for injecting huge amounts of air bubbles into the water â€"œ often to the point of obscuring the tank inhabitants. Through a series of design changes, it seems that using a very tall narrow reservoir combined with angling the siphon intake work together to break the siphon faster, reducing the number of air bubbles injected into the water at the end of the cycle. A small hole drilled at the top of the return pipe will bleed off some of the air trapped in the siphon at the beginning of the cycle. This hole also insures that the siphon process ends properly at the end of each cycle.
JHemdal
Surge tank
Often called a Carlson Surge Device or CSD (After Bruce Carlson of the Georgia Aquarium) this device creates a crashing flow of water that very closely simulates wave action in shallow water. These devices consist of a tank of water above the aquarium. Water is pumped into the tank. As the water level rises to the top, an internal siphon inside the tank begins to flow. The siphon is much faster at draining the tank as the pump is in filling it. All of the water in the tank therefore rushes out of the siphon until the tank drains and the siphon action breaks when it “catches airâ€Â. The pump (running all the time) then refills the tank and the cycle repeats itself. To build one of these it is best to follow someone else’s proven design. Pump flow rate, surge tank size, the height above the water and diameter of the siphon tube are all variables that need to be closely controlled or the unit will not operate properly. Even when they are well designed, these surge devices have a bad reputation for injecting huge amounts of air bubbles into the water â€"œ often to the point of obscuring the tank inhabitants. Through a series of design changes, it seems that using a very tall narrow reservoir combined with angling the siphon intake work together to break the siphon faster, reducing the number of air bubbles injected into the water at the end of the cycle. A small hole drilled at the top of the return pipe will bleed off some of the air trapped in the siphon at the beginning of the cycle. This hole also insures that the siphon process ends properly at the end of each cycle.
JHemdal
ReefTECK
New member
Whoa JHemdal! Awesome to see you on RC! I love your book! Got it two months ago. Thanks for the read....
To the topic at hand, I like the surge device, it is a perfect way to achieve totally randomized flow, and they look kewl, but.....it makes it impossible to run an auto top off system. Which I find to be more valuable, at least in my situation.
cheers,
Andy
To the topic at hand, I like the surge device, it is a perfect way to achieve totally randomized flow, and they look kewl, but.....it makes it impossible to run an auto top off system. Which I find to be more valuable, at least in my situation.
cheers,
Andy
Andy,
If the intake and the return for the CSD are both in the main tank, and your top off float switch is in the sump - would the sump level change enough to throw off the switching? That's how I've run them in the past (but the CSD's I've made were all less than 5% of the total system volume, so perhaps not enough to cause levels to rise and fall?).
If the CSD intake is in the sump, then on each cycle it would cause the top off switch to actuate - I can see how that would become a major problem!
We took our last CSD out of service - even with the modifications, I didn't like the bubbles, and I was worried about them collecting underneath some plating Montipora (not sure that would be harmful or not, but decided to err on the side of caution).
JHemdal
p.s. - glad you enjoyed the book!
If the intake and the return for the CSD are both in the main tank, and your top off float switch is in the sump - would the sump level change enough to throw off the switching? That's how I've run them in the past (but the CSD's I've made were all less than 5% of the total system volume, so perhaps not enough to cause levels to rise and fall?).
If the CSD intake is in the sump, then on each cycle it would cause the top off switch to actuate - I can see how that would become a major problem!
We took our last CSD out of service - even with the modifications, I didn't like the bubbles, and I was worried about them collecting underneath some plating Montipora (not sure that would be harmful or not, but decided to err on the side of caution).
JHemdal
p.s. - glad you enjoyed the book!
JNye
Moved On Up
Jay-I also enjoyed the book immensely!
Andy I have been recently picking the brains of some locals who run CSD and they all run ATOs with float switches. The key is to set the float switch at the lowest water level, they will be overwhelmed with water when it dumps but should work fine. Or you could run a dosing pump and simply monitor top-offs seasonally. I know of more than a few who like this method more than floats, and they say they only have to make adjustments like 3 times a year-not too bad! IMO the skimmer needs to be in a seperate sump between the display and return sump though.
Andy I have been recently picking the brains of some locals who run CSD and they all run ATOs with float switches. The key is to set the float switch at the lowest water level, they will be overwhelmed with water when it dumps but should work fine. Or you could run a dosing pump and simply monitor top-offs seasonally. I know of more than a few who like this method more than floats, and they say they only have to make adjustments like 3 times a year-not too bad! IMO the skimmer needs to be in a seperate sump between the display and return sump though.
bergzy
New member
Helter Skilter
OT Community Organizer
I've got three 10g CSDs on my 210, and the bubbles are not bad. Even when all three surges hit at once, they clear out pretty quick.
Helter Skilter
OT Community Organizer
This is a 20 gallon tank, split in half.
It is hung using strap steel that is bolted to angle iron that is screwed into the floor joists above. You can see the vents poo-tang was talking about. My other surge is hidden from view by the 20.
All three surges, a 1" Sea Swirl, a chiller, a phosphate reactor and my calcium reactor are fed by a Baracuda. Eventually I plan to upgrade to a big Sequence pump, and add my skimmer to the return system.
The only video camera I have is my phone, and I have no idea on how to post video.
Helter Skilter
OT Community Organizer
Han shot first!
Helter Skilter
OT Community Organizer
Sorry, the algae kind of blocks the view.You are looking at a 20 gallon high. It has been dived to make 2 surges out of one tank. Water enters the tank on the left side, through a 1.5" bulkhead. It Ts off before the divider, and then flows down. Make sure to put ball valves on each fill, so you can adjust the flow going into each tank. That is the fill portion.
For the drains, the tank was drilled on the bottom for a 1.5" bulkhead on each side of the divider. There is a length of PVC with a vented Pea trap on top of it. The other side of the Pea trap runs down to almost the bottom of the tank. From the vented part of the Pea trap, there is a length of 3/4" pvc that acts as the siphon break. On the left side is a 2" emergency drain
Nothing but gravity activates the surges. They simply fill until a siphon is established, and then surge until the siphon is broken. That's the beauty of CSD (besides the fact that they hit harder than the Borneman surges) there are no moving parts to fail.
There is a diagram of one in the book Reef Secrets. The only picture I could find on the net is linked here.
http://www.masla.com/reef/csm.html
For the drains, the tank was drilled on the bottom for a 1.5" bulkhead on each side of the divider. There is a length of PVC with a vented Pea trap on top of it. The other side of the Pea trap runs down to almost the bottom of the tank. From the vented part of the Pea trap, there is a length of 3/4" pvc that acts as the siphon break. On the left side is a 2" emergency drain
Nothing but gravity activates the surges. They simply fill until a siphon is established, and then surge until the siphon is broken. That's the beauty of CSD (besides the fact that they hit harder than the Borneman surges) there are no moving parts to fail.
There is a diagram of one in the book Reef Secrets. The only picture I could find on the net is linked here.
http://www.masla.com/reef/csm.html
seaskraP
New member
ok, got it. very cool. thanks.
so then the extra vent that poo-tang refers to is the 1/4 tubing you have coming out of the 90 bends that go into the tank in the second pic you included?
does it really help reduce bubbles?
i was thinking some live rock in the surge tank would help create more live food for the tank, any reason you have yours empty?
so then the extra vent that poo-tang refers to is the 1/4 tubing you have coming out of the 90 bends that go into the tank in the second pic you included?
does it really help reduce bubbles?
i was thinking some live rock in the surge tank would help create more live food for the tank, any reason you have yours empty?
JNye
Moved On Up
seaskraP- i think thats called a resurgafugium! I think people do it, you should plan for it and make sure you leave some extra space on the bottom that doesn't dump. I am planning on doin this on my next and last big tank...still years away unforntunately.
all you'd need to do is raise the siphon break to an appropriate height.
all you'd need to do is raise the siphon break to an appropriate height.
Helter Skilter
OT Community Organizer
The tubing on the 90s are the vents. I can't say I know they make the bubbles minimal because I've never seen them without the vents. I followed a friends advice setting them up, and he swears they make a difference. He has been toying with surges for several years so I wasn't about to argue with him.
I would have loved to have made them refusurges, but I simply didn't have the extra room for bigger surge tanks. The tank is inwall, so I can only access it from the back. I also built the stand and exta foot taller so I wouldn't get a sore back looking at it. A wider tank would have limited aceess to the middle of the tank, and i couldn't go taller due to low ceilings in my basement. I wasn't willing to go smaller than 10g for the surges so I left out the fuge part.
Besides raising the siphon break, you can also use a larger tank and install a glass divider in the center. Plumb the fill into the fuge part, and let the water overflow into the surge section.
I would have loved to have made them refusurges, but I simply didn't have the extra room for bigger surge tanks. The tank is inwall, so I can only access it from the back. I also built the stand and exta foot taller so I wouldn't get a sore back looking at it. A wider tank would have limited aceess to the middle of the tank, and i couldn't go taller due to low ceilings in my basement. I wasn't willing to go smaller than 10g for the surges so I left out the fuge part.
Besides raising the siphon break, you can also use a larger tank and install a glass divider in the center. Plumb the fill into the fuge part, and let the water overflow into the surge section.
