carnation/yellow tree coral

[kristytang]

i just went to my LFS and ended up coming home with a yellow carnation. now, i know, do research before you buy, but at $5 i couldnt leave it there. ive read that theyre hard to keep (very) and im wondering why are they so hard? is it just because of its feeding requirments? obviously its not lighting haha. i have other soft corals that are doing great so im keeping my fingers crossed it will survive. will target feeding be enough food for it? and how on earth do i position it in low light/high flow? also will high lighting kill it? i know it doesnt need it but i cant find anything on if it will actually hurt it.

 

[bluenassarius]

they require dirty water. i've seen a few ppl successful at keeping them but they had dirty water, a bunch of fish and skimmerless.

 

[kristytang]

would these do okay in a small tank? just wondering since i have a 1.5 gallon tank with basic lighting i could devote entirely to it.

 

[dendro982]

Is it like on the left or on the right, only yellow:

On the left is scleronephthya, on the right - dendronephthya.
You can find a lot of threads on their keeping at this forums, soft corals forums, others non-photosynthetic / azooxantellate corals forums.

As far as I know, it will require almost constant feedings by specialized food (Fauna Marin, different recipes, or Shellfish Diet plus Rotifeast), but most of this information is applicable to a larger systems. Barebone minimum in feeding will be variety of mouth sized foods, not only phytoplankton, but zoo origin too, imitation of detritus and bacterial dust, like Marine Snow. Small amounts, drop for this one coral, given frequently (automatic feeder or dripping the frozen food into high flow area).

Now the bad part, sorry:
With such influx of nutrients you will need to keep water survivably clean, with no ammonia, and nitrates within 40 ppm, phosphates preferably zero.

If you have 1.5g pico only and no other tanks, and don't plan to expand, then (at least I) don't know how to do that.

I kept 3/4 g pico with other NPS coral, that required twice a week feedings, but in larger amounts, and I did almost full water changes, using water from established 6g nano tank. New water, if it is not a natural sea water, killed organisms that I kept.

You may:
1. Make similar backup tank, with less feedings, maybe refugium type, with macroalgae. Or
2. Try to figure out how to make adequate filtration for a pico.

I had seen photos of 2g picos (usual photosynthetic), that were using hang-on-the back of the tank Rio Nano skimmer (~$30, works well - have 2 of them, but they are louder, then I would like it to be). I had it on 6g Nano-cube, set as refugium type of the tank, with good light (day light, later 27W daylight spiral bulb), planted. It processed quite a lot of food, except liquid fraction of homemade seafood blend, but within a couple of months the content was transferred to 10g tank, with more biomedia in the side sump (it could be 2g tank for $10 or $1 plastic container for fry food storage. Search for "Minibow 2.5" PaulS will show photos). So I can't say how it will be in a long run.

Another challenge, requiring some observation and trial and error approach, will be positioning this coral in the pico, where it will get quite strong flow (it keeps green star polyps almost flat, much more than Rio Nano Filter, 60 gph is able to give), but not in a close proximity to the pump or filter, flow should be dispersed.

If you decide to keep this coral, I can give more links on pico and nano setups, that could be useful (as an ideas, not of them was set for NPS corals) and some photos.

If you will be able to keep it in small settings and post for all of us how to do that, it would be very interesting and useful. But beware, that chances are not too high.

 

[kristytang]

its actually the one on the left but with orang-ish....fluffs. its much much more fluffy than the one on the right.

youve given me some very usefull information and a lot to think about. im pretty sure that right now, with my very limited experience it would be a sure death for the poor coral. however, this whole topic has greatly spiked my intrest in the coral itself and im thinking one i have a lot more experience im going to try this and see if it can be done.

 

[dendro982]

Close-ups of scleronephthyas, darker (almost same color) mouth:

Correction to my previous post: Nano-filter, 60 gph, is Red Sea, not Rio.

BTW, chili and scloenephthya were my two first corals . If only I knew how high the flow should be and that the feeding should be not by 1-2 kinds of readily available bottled food from LFS (both were phytoplankton) and not twice a day...
Chili still alive now, sclero lasted for 1.5 yrs. In bigger tank, though.

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

One idea for filtration for a very small tank with these guys would be to just use a constant water changing system. Basically, you use two dosing pumps (Litermeter III works really well for this): one to add new saltwater to your tank and one to remove old saltwater from your tank. You need a dosing pump because you need to ensure that you're taking out just as much as you're putting in. With a rather small tank (say under 5 gallons), you could change 25%+ of the tank each day without having to spend a lot of $$$ in salt. The advantage of this system over typical batch water changes, aside from the less work involved, is that you're not creating as much of a shock to the water parameters. IMO, you would not need anything else in the way of filtration so long as you are doing enough in water changing.

I think that a rather small tank with this system is the way to go for these corals. Feeding vs. maintaining water quality is always going to be the biggest problem with non-photo tanks. For dendros and scleros, the method of feeding seems to be dosing the water column. Target feeding is less realistic for these guys. Therefore, it is the size of the tank that will determine the amount of food you need to add. So, again, you win out with a small tank.

The major challenge with a small tank is to provide adequate laminar flow for these corals (another important facet of their care). My idea is that you can do this in one of two ways:
-Create a closed loop in the system where the pump intake is on one side of the tank and the output is on the other.
-Use a cylindrical tank and have a pump drive the water in a circular motion

 

[dendro982]

aninjaatemyshoe:
Me again, humble request: if you find anything on 8x lesser budget, hardware, ideas - anything, post please. I'm also interested in developing nano systems for NPS, but on a budget.

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

If you want cheap, this system doesn't necessarily need to be powered by a Litermeter III. You could accomplish it with any number of peristaltic, medical, or diaphragm pumps found on eBay. The trick is to make sure that you are drawing as much water from the tank as you are replacing and be as accurate about this as you can. The Litermeter is nice because it is very reliable and rather simple to set up. You can save a lot of money using something more DIY, but it is going to take at least some technical skill and ingenuity.

Tell you what. Give me a budget for a water exchange system (like are we talking less than $100?) and I'll see if I can find a way to make it work.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you for the interest to the topic and advice. If you don't mind, can we continue this in a separate thread NPS tank on a budget? Or I will be eventually beaten for hitchhiking other people's threads

Less that $100 fer each piece will be ideal, if this is possible at all - there are different people with different budgets

Peristaltic pump, that Jens K. used for a continuous feeding, is reasonable. Syringe pumps on eBay are only for authorized medical buyers, not for common mortals.

Unfortunately, supplies, tools and workshop for DIY frequently cost much more, than commercial models.

Please, do not limit this to water change only - anything will be useful.
See you in the new thread about setting budget nano tank.

 

[terimar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13548897#post13548897 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
If you want cheap, this system doesn't necessarily need to be powered by a Litermeter III. You could accomplish it with any number of peristaltic, medical, or diaphragm pumps found on eBay. The trick is to make sure that you are drawing as much water from the tank as you are replacing and be as accurate about this as you can. The Litermeter is nice because it is very reliable and rather simple to set up. You can save a lot of money using something more DIY, but it is going to take at least some technical skill and ingenuity.

Tell you what. Give me a budget for a water exchange system (like are we talking less than $100?) and I'll see if I can find a way to make it work.

Why be so complicated? Just set the tank up for overflow, flow good water in and let the overflowing water collect in a bucket, or just go down the drain.

 

[kristytang]

well, an update on the coral. i do still have it (somewhere). my diamond goby decided he didnt like my landscaping one night and rearanged everything. i finally found out where he put the carnation, under a rock in the back. its actually still open, no visible change in it as of now. i dont expect it to make it but i cant find a place to take it, all my lfs refused since its small and nobody local wants it. but, thats the gist of what its doing. im still thinking about setting up a private tank for it but im in the middle of a move and itll be a while to cycle, after i have the $$ to buy it of corse, so it wont be for a while. hopefully itll still be alive. if not ill have to hunt down that mantis thats hiding out in my tank and he may have his own little appartment.

 

[natan]

>The trick is to make sure that you are drawing as much water from the tank as you are replacing and be as accurate about this as you can.

How about using an antient owerhlow system for that? Dead accurate, whatever u drip in will drip out of the tank automatically. This way all u need is some sort of dripping system to add water, i guess a simple mechanical one should do.

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13559030#post13559030 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by terimar
Why be so complicated? Just set the tank up for overflow, flow good water in and let the overflowing water collect in a bucket, or just go down the drain.

Such a system would create a similar effect to what you get when you replace all top-off water with saltwater instead of freshwater. Your tank will tend to run high in salinity unless you compensate regularly by adding in freshwater. Basically, you could do it like you mention, but you'd have to keep constant vigilance on your tank's salinity.

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about Natan, but does such a system allow for a freshwater top-off system to compensate for evaporation? If not, it will have the same problem as I mentioned.

 

[dendro982]

kristytang:
Try to keep it in the flow (distant from pump or reflected from glass), that is not much lower, than pictured here:

green star polyps are bent to a certain angle. You can use piece of common thread, tied ti a rod. Highest flow - not much higher. This saved my scleros.

Open cave with steady medium-high pull-through flow is good too:

And frequent feeding by a very small food in small doses: Hikari First Bites ($1.90), dried phytoplankton, ESV or PhytoPlan ($12, lasts for a long time), ZoPlan, frozen rotifers. GARF or mcox33 flake recipe, fine fraction. These should be available in any LFS and online, lower price end. Anything that could be made small enough to fit the mouth, including enriched fish food, different phyto- and zooplankton. Fauna Marin mix, if you can.

It takes time for a sclero to open, repeated feedings will be necessary.

In low flow it starts looks melting:

and dies.
At early stage (just a little less melted than pictured, this is reversible by placing it in a high flow and frequent feeding by suitable food.
Cyclop eeze, Kent ZooPlex are too big, IMHE:

It is very likely, that you have some suitable spot in the tank. If goby makes troubles, then a very open soap holder ($1) with suction caps can be used:

or a very small eggcrate frag shelf, any surface with some border, zip-tied to MagFloat (magnetic glass cleaner). Plastic rain gutter cover ($4 in hardware store) is very open, put unsightly. Google image search for frag shelf and name of material will show you options, or you may browse Aquaculture forum here, at RC.
If you know, what I was talking about, sorry for assumption, that you were not familiar with this. Just trying to help.

 

[terimar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13566362#post13566362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
Such a system would create a similar effect to what you get when you replace all top-off water with saltwater instead of freshwater. Your tank will tend to run high in salinity unless you compensate regularly by adding in freshwater. Basically, you could do it like you mention, but you'd have to keep constant vigilance on your tank's salinity.

You mean you don't already keep track of your tank's salinity?

 

[natan]

>I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about Natan, but does such a system allow for a freshwater top-off system to compensate for evaporation? If not, it will have the same problem as I mentioned.<

yes it will have the same problem. in fact my post just dubbled someone elses on setting it to overflow (which i didnt see). But, it will have less salinity spike problems than a tank on which less chenges are made, because large % of water is frequently replaced with water of appropriate salinity. U need to test and adjust from time to time of cause, but less and not more frequently than on any other nano.