Causes of montipora bleaching or RTN?

How often do you perform water changes and what percentage do you change at a time? Also, what do you feed and how much?

From my experience with this same issue I would say to check to make sure it is not a combo of too low nutrients and alk shock from the water changes.

If possible, quickly removing susceptible pieces to a stable tank is the best option until you get things stable and figured out with your tank.

Good luck with it..
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15542785#post15542785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schminksbro
Guaranteed that carbon dosing with such unnaturally high alk levels is your problem. Monties and Bird's nest seem to be the most sensitive to those conditions. In my opinion running alk that high is an archaic philosophy. Back when it was diffacult to maintain stable parameters guys would overshoot in an effort to stay in a "safe zone". Now we have many tools to keep stable parameters. Why would you keep levels so much higher than NSW?

Great - thanks for post.

Does your job, looking at tank, pay much?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15542785#post15542785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schminksbro
Why would you keep levels so much higher than NSW?


In my case actually it's because of the Reef Crystals I am using. I haven't had to dose much alk or calcium in this system, as I don't have a lot of SPS "mass" or corraline right now.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15542919#post15542919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stratos21ss
How often do you perform water changes and what percentage do you change at a time? Also, what do you feed and how much?

From my experience with this same issue I would say to check to make sure it is not a combo of too low nutrients and alk shock from the water changes.

If possible, quickly removing susceptible pieces to a stable tank is the best option until you get things stable and figured out with your tank.

Good luck with it..


Water change is 10% every two weeks. Skimmer cleaned monthly. I do skim fairly wet.


As for feeding, I believe I am feeding fairly heavily... based on my experience (and the big patch of brypsis/GHA I can't get rid of!)


I feed one or two cubes of mysis, one "light" teaspoon of flake food, one kidney-bean sized piece of cyclop-eeze (for the corals), and I alternate Kent Coral Accel and Seachem Reef Complete aminos daily.

I also feed either two silversides or a few krill, or some frozen glass shrimp to my fuzzy dwarf lion every other day or so.
 
Is it possible there is an accumilation of trace elements to toxic level from daily kent/seachem? (maybe i read too much on RC and internet!)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543085#post15543085 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
Good Lord! Thats a lot of food in a 25!

Well at least we know it's not a lack of nutrients.
 
..with the wet skimming you can get some variance with salinity levels..also check to make sure whatever your measuring with is correctly calibrated.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543018#post15543018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redfishsc
In my case actually it's because of the Reef Crystals I am using. I haven't had to dose much alk or calcium in this system, as I don't have a lot of SPS "mass" or corraline right now.





Water change is 10% every two weeks. Skimmer cleaned monthly. I do skim fairly wet.


As for feeding, I believe I am feeding fairly heavily... based on my experience (and the big patch of brypsis/GHA I can't get rid of!)


I feed one or two cubes of mysis, one "light" teaspoon of flake food, one kidney-bean sized piece of cyclop-eeze (for the corals), and I alternate Kent Coral Accel and Seachem Reef Complete aminos daily.

I also feed either two silversides or a few krill, or some frozen glass shrimp to my fuzzy dwarf lion every other day or so.

I would agree that's alot of food for daily addition for a 25. My 330 gallons total across 3 tanks, sump and refugium doesn't see that much per day.

And Flake food is a really good source for nitrate and phosphate, which are the key components for healthy and happy nuisance algae's. Which once established can be tough to eradicate even under ULNS practices. The daily aminos might be heavy handed as well. I find that everything from feeding to dosing of any kind that a subtle or really light hand is the best.

Sounds like you need to rethink your overall feeding and dosing. In some cases, the lion fish in a system that size would be considered as food enough for the corals on it's own.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543085#post15543085 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
Good Lord! Thats a lot of food in a 25!

No no no.... the system is a 25, a 20L, a 5.5 refugium, and a 5g sump. ;)

Yes, though, it is a lot of food. I have a lot of LPS in there (mostly euphyllia and duncans).


FWIW I have not had any nitrate issues at all. It's always 0 on the API kit. Phosphate stays in the "barely detectable" range on the Seachem kit, which seems to be between .05 and .1ppm.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543093#post15543093 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tony Romano
Is it possible there is an accumilation of trace elements to toxic level from daily kent/seachem? (maybe i read too much on RC and internet!)

That is a possibility I had not thought of.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543142#post15543142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stratos21ss
..with the wet skimming you can get some variance with salinity levels..also check to make sure whatever your measuring with is correctly calibrated.

Yes, it can for sure. I use a refractometer and check every other day, and keep it calibrated with the Pinpoint solution. I check the calibration once a month or so, or if I ever get a salinity reading that's odd.

My tank does not vary more than 0.5ppt per day. I top it off each day, maybe a quart a day.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543152#post15543152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CleveYank
I would agree that's alot of food for daily addition for a 25. My 330 gallons total across 3 tanks, sump and refugium doesn't see that much per day.

And Flake food is a really good source for nitrate and phosphate, which are the key components for healthy and happy nuisance algae's. Which once established can be tough to eradicate even under ULNS practices. The daily aminos might be heavy handed as well. I find that everything from feeding to dosing of any kind that a subtle or really light hand is the best.

Sounds like you need to rethink your overall feeding and dosing. In some cases, the lion fish in a system that size would be considered as food enough for the corals on it's own.


That I will do.

My hunch was that since nitrate and phosphate are under control (barely, or not at all detectable), the extra feeding wasn't hurting anything. That may not be the case after all.


I think I will rotate the mysis and flake food to every-other-day and reduce the amino dosing by half.

The lion is small, 4" or so.








Overall I am still thinking that the problem is due to the alk and carbon dosing, but I may be wrong. If I reduce my feeding, I can reduce or maybe eliminate the carbon dosing altogether.

I will try some heavier water changes this week sometime.
 
I notice you posted in another forum about stray voltage. Have you considered that as a possible culprit? Maybe there is a combination of a water problem that has weekened the defense of your montis and the stray voltage is killing weakened tissue.

Totally fireside science here...just a thought.
 
Sorry for the length of this, but I felt like sharing.

My setup was going well.

And in the minimalist practices of dosing any traces, low food input and lower bioload (I don't push the bioload on my systems to the end for nutrient headroom) than most. I was having hair algae showing up. The test kits said no but the eyes showed ULNS with hair algae still gaining ground.

I finally broke down and began vodka. The system, not me, although it was almost driving me to drink. ;)
The Hair algae was slowing and in a couple areas thinning. I had an alk jump that stunted things and my stylophoras and some pocci's took a hit. So I bumped the alk down. Colors on my corals looked sick and pale but they were growing.
Forward 2 more months and the colors are tad better and test kits still say ULNS yet the Hair algae was still there.
I was dosing 25ml per day of the 40 proof stuff. I tried lowering the amount and boom the hair algae would start to take off.
Throughout this I had increased the flow both via powerheads and returns almost double in each part of the system except the refugium.
So I lower the vodka and the hair algae tries to grow, I raise it back up and I had red, black and blue green cyano.
I'm dosing bacteria with this and yet still I have this issue.

I stumbled on a revisit of the VSV within another thread and read a link I hadn't read before. The writer puts it that the combo brings about (he's guessing and states this) the idea that the Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar mix allows 3 possibly different strains of bacteria or that the 3 carbon sources offset one another within the bacteria in the system. Thereby better substitution bacterias in place of any extra carbon source that cyano may uptake.

After just 3 weeks I got to a state of hair algae removal from my main 90 sps growout, and my sps frag tank and the colors are approaching better than I've ever had. I'm at a 5ml VSV dosage on 330 gallons and things are just getting better. The colors, the growth, the PE is just insane. And that's under those nasty metal halides that the T5 folks say are so bad and a 6 inch sandbed in the main growout that the sandbed doom and gloom voodoo'ers are always ranting about. Heh heh heh heh,

The punchline? You may want to adjust the dosing. You may want to look at a MicroBactor 7 or probidio dosing with the vodka or try the VSV with the MB7 or probidio ( As SunnyX has pointed out in more than one thread/posting the probidio dosages are set and probably not smaller system friendly so the MB7 might be a better choice). No matter what you do I'd really take your total actual system volume into account and start at the bottom numbers on everything. Small systems are not forgiving when it comes to double dosing or too much feeding and changes happen really fast so move slow.

--->That goes for water changes too. I'd do some 10% water changes daily and home in on key nutreint areas like sand and sumps to remove detritus and see how things are going.
Some reading on the VSV.
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/ach...xperimentation/

The last things I will leave you with are my mottos in most things that when I was only 2 years into legit reefkeeping by 1991 I probably didn't completely even consider yet.

1 It's always easier to add than it is to subtract. As in once it's in there it's hard to get it back out.
2 Baby steps. Slow and go and you'll have an easier time backing away from a problem.
3 DO NOT WING IT. Measure, chart, record and analysis is the best way to bring about slow positive change in a system.
--->There's heaps more of interdependent chemistry going on which differs from most of the freshwater and lengthy knowledge of that area you appear to possess.
4 Grab some info from 5 or 6 totm winners and or folks with systems that you wish to emulate and read both directly and between the lines and set this up to become your individual blueprint to success and you'll be more than halfway there. It's like cheating in class except it's allowed. ;)
5 Just because a 55 will support 17 linear inches of fish does not mean nor have I found it a good overall system failsafe (the headroom for error I allow) to make that bioload your goal.
Not always depending upon other allowances in a system, but some fish can be polluters that just feeding them puts a heavier load on a system in the 1st place and in some case are not long-term compatible with $40 to $80 ora sps or plating LE montys. (think predators like tusks, eels, lionfish, groupers, triggers) Add some heavy feeding on top of that and well it's just not a long-term recipe for success.


Good Luck and Have fun. You'll get it dialed in.
 
same issue here. I was only losing montiporas, and it was unfortunate because I lost a good 10 mini colonies and they were on the rare side. I was only able to save a few but they also browned out.

I'm not exactly sure what started the process but I believe it was a combination of alk spike/temp swings and maybe infection. Near the end I was losing some zoas as well.

Be nice to know what the real culprit was.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543687#post15543687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
I notice you posted in another forum about stray voltage. Have you considered that as a possible culprit? Maybe there is a combination of a water problem that has weekened the defense of your montis and the stray voltage is killing weakened tissue.

Totally fireside science here...just a thought.


Yup, that's the reason for that post also, but I am thinking that it might not be a problem. The voltage is quite low and it's not stray electrical current, just voltage. I sure wish I could nail it down as the culprit!! Some have suggested that at that low of a voltage (6-10 v) that adding a grounding probe would actually convert the voltage into electrical current, which would be a problem.


Now, I think you are directly onto a good point about the "combo" problem. I think that there may be several issues going on all at once.


I will be reducing the feedings, removing a couple of fish from the system, and doing some more frequent water changes in case there has been anything built up to a toxic level.

I just did a 20% change as a good start.

Thanks for all the help, everyone, and by all means keep throwing out ideas!!


This has been one of the best threads I've started around here yet, you all have come out of the woodwork to help me, and it's greatly appreciated!!!!!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15543944#post15543944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CleveYank
Sorry for the length of this, but I felt like sharing.....


Cleve, I read the whole post and it was great information, thank you for sharing.



Those would stand well to be the "5 Commandments of Reef Keeping"



When I go to frag swaps, I inevitably get into conversations with people who are much more noob than I (I do have at least a couple of years in reefing, but granted only real seriously for a year).

I always leave them with the statement.... "The only things that happen quickly in a reef tank are very, very bad things".


It's hard to learn those things. Coral grow much quicker than my patience!!!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15544623#post15544623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by isseym328
same issue here. I was only losing montiporas, and it was unfortunate because I lost a good 10 mini colonies and they were on the rare side. I was only able to save a few but they also browned out.

I'm not exactly sure what started the process but I believe it was a combination of alk spike/temp swings and maybe infection. Near the end I was losing some zoas as well.

Be nice to know what the real culprit was.



isseym328, please feel free to post your tank information here. For example, some of the things we've talked about that might be affecting my tank (some ruled out, some not) are the following:

1) Have you looked at night in the tank for monti nudibranchs?

2) Are you dosing carbon (vinegar, sugar, vodka, etc...)?

3) What is your alk?

4) Nitrate and phosphate?

5) What/how much are you feeding, and how big is your system?


Just a few thoughts. Hopefully you can get some more info in this thread also.
 
I was dosing Vodka and had KH up over 11. NO3 and PO4 were in line and montis kept fading. Then when there was any kind of nutrient spike the cyano would start on them....

I repeatly under estimate the exacting nature of sps. I am very tired of losing any corals, logging and slow controlled change is key. Every time I cut a corner or hurry something bad happens! At least now I only lose weaklings!
 
Howdy,

1) No nudis. I've had them before and know what to look for. Also I got colonies that bleached over night...instantaneous.

2) Only dosing 2-part...although I know at the beginning my alk was too high at 14. I lowered it to under 10 for at least 6 weeks now. It's possible that this is the culprit although I feel like my montis were still dying after 6 weeks of low alk.

3) Now it's between 9-10

4) very low. I have no issues with this. I skim, have a hang on refuge, plus water change at least 10 percent water once a week. I also did two massive 40 percent water changes a few weeks ago to hopefully slow down the rtn...and it kind of worked.

5) I alternately feed flakes and live brine once a day in a 60g cube. I have three fishes and a few shrimps to feed. I do hand feed bits of salmon every so often to my carpet anem and softies.

6) I had a temp spike to about 83 maybe at the beginning of this. I thought also that might be the culprit but I got it under control pretty quick, and was still losing montis.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15546799#post15546799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tony Romano


I repeatly under estimate the exacting nature of sps. I am very tired of losing any corals, logging and slow controlled change is key. Every time I cut a corner or hurry something bad happens! At least now I only lose weaklings!


You and me both! I have a couple of "indestructible" corals that have gone through a good bit. I have a millepora that isn't as fast growing as I'd like but it's otherwise doing well. Pavona is always a winner for me, as is my ORA green birdsnest.


A friend gave me a nice scrolling yellow SPS that initially was injured (took a fall and several pieces were scraped up exposing the skeleton badly)--- it healed over in a week. I was surprised, and now it's growing well.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15546993#post15546993 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by isseym328
Howdy,

1) No nudis. I've had them before and know what to look for. Also I got colonies that bleached over night...instantaneous.

2) Only dosing 2-part...although I know at the beginning my alk was too high at 14. I lowered it to under 10 for at least 6 weeks now. It's possible that this is the culprit although I feel like my montis were still dying after 6 weeks of low alk.

3) Now it's between 9-10

4) very low. I have no issues with this. I skim, have a hang on refuge, plus water change at least 10 percent water once a week. I also did two massive 40 percent water changes a few weeks ago to hopefully slow down the rtn...and it kind of worked.

5) I alternately feed flakes and live brine once a day in a 60g cube. I have three fishes and a few shrimps to feed. I do hand feed bits of salmon every so often to my carpet anem and softies.

6) I had a temp spike to about 83 maybe at the beginning of this. I thought also that might be the culprit but I got it under control pretty quick, and was still losing montis.


Personally I think the alk is still too high at 9-10. I've read several threads where folks are shooting for 7. That's what I'm shooting for. I believe seawater is normally around 7, so there's really no major reason to go any higher.

I wouldn't worry about a temp spike to 83. There are some tanks that actually stay at that temp due to the high lighting (and lack of a chiller). For 6 months mine stayed at 82 and I never had a problem I associated with temp.
 
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