Causes of montipora bleaching or RTN?

[redfishsc]

Yup, that's monti nudis alright. Glad you located the problem and are eradicating them.

You might try using Flatworm-Exit, I know that at least one person found that the stuff will kill zoa-eating nudis, but I don't know about the Monti eaters. Keep extra carbon in your filtration systems, as I dunno if monti nudis will release any toxin when stressed.

 

[sweevo]

How have things gone over the past few weeks redfishsc, any improvement?

I've got the exact same thing in my own tank. Picked up some monti digi frags a few months ago, within 6 weeks they were growing and all the tips had gone a beautiful deep pink colour and then.......

I noticed on one of my pink monti digi frags that at it's base there seemed to be loss of tissue. Over the weeks this slowly worked it's way upwards and the colour started to fade. I decided to try relocating it since at that time it was limited to only that particular frag.

This didn't make any difference and then all the other pink monti's started to fade a week or two later and now they're all losing tissue too! Like others, this is only limited (at present anyway) to my pink branching monti's. I've got a few seriatopora and acro frags which are fine and also a green branching monti that so far seems unaffected.

I recently bought a refractometer and found my salinity was high so I've been slowly bringing this down over the past week. I was hoping that this might be the cause but after reading through this thread i'm seriously doubting it since all my other corals are doing fine.

Ca 440
Alk 7.7
Mg 1400
NO3 <0.5 (very low, salifert)
P04 <0.03 (salifert)

I dose prodibio (digest and bioptim) every fortnight and top up Ca, Alk and Mg using the Tropic Marin Bio (Calcium & Magnesium) range which claims to add trace elements including iodine & strontium (haven't got test kits for these) also. I also use Kalk for my auto top up.

Now I know about the monti nudi's I keep looking for them. Didn't spot any when I looked just now when the lights had been out for a few hours but i'll keep checking.

Hope you've had some positive results.

 

[redfishsc]

Thanks for asking, sweevo!

Things have definitely turned around, and I'm not sure why (although I'm not complaining!!).

I don't have any "before/after" pics, but all of my montis are making a comeback.

I can DEFINITELY see better polyp extension on them all, and they are all beginning to re-grow the dead area.


That being said, I'm not sure what changed.

At first I suspected the higher alk, which was around 10-12 dKH--- combined with the carbon (glucose) dosing. The burnt tip issue.

Well, I stopped dosing carbon. Also slowed WAY back on dosing any amino acids and such. Cut WAY back on feeding the fish and corals.


Then the algae started growing like crazy, even though the nitrates and phosphates stayed below (or just at) detectable levels.



I returned to dosing carbon to fight the algae (nutrient war) and just accepted the fact that I might lose my montis in the battle. I had already lost nearly all of the frags, and 80% of the two hand-sized pieces in the display tank.


For whatever reason, they perked up even though my alk is still 10-12 dKH.

I don't know what the difference is, but something's making them happier. All other SPS are doing fine too, an in fact my millepora seems to have hit a growth spurt (probably due to the carbon dosing and lower phosphate)

 

[redfishsc]

Regarding your tank, everything looks fine to me in the way of nutrient levels.


Perhaps skim wet and be a bit heavy handed with the activated carbon, since it's possible that the issue is chemical warfare. I do this and it seems to help.


Keep an eye out at night for the monti nudis. Very nocturnal.

Flatworm Exit may kill them. May not, I've heard conflicting reports.

 

[sweevo]

Thanks for the update. Nice to hear things have turned around for you.

I'll try some activated carbon as I haven't used any for quite a while now. Don't know why I never thought of that as I've got plenty.

Didn't spot any nudi's last night but i'll be keeping my eye for them too.

If I stumble on a miracle cure I'll be sure to post !!!

 

[Emster]

I have found my montis will do this if the alk jumps up from say 3.5 to 4.0 in a day or two. They don't like it, montis love very stable alk.

 

[redfishsc]

Thanks for that, Eric.

In fact, there have been a couple of times during this battle that I had to kalk-bomb a few aiptasias, and it always kicks my alk up 1 or 2 dKH (or more if I got too heavy handed:eek1.


I'll keep this in mind next time and bomb fewer aiptasias. I can't put peppermint shrimp in my 25g because of the fuzzy dwarf lion, but they work GREAT in my 20g.

 

[sweevo]

I have found my montis will do this if the alk jumps up from say 3.5 to 4.0 in a day or two. They don't like it, montis love very stable alk.

are you meaning for example from 7.5 to 10.5/11.5 ?

I only dose my Bio Calcium in small amounts as I know from experience that the hydrogen carbonate in it makes the dKH rocket if you add a few full scoops at a time. My head almost fell off my shoulders last year (pre SPS keeping days) when I measured my dKH at 14 the day after adding four scoops !!!!!!

 

[redfishsc]

The good news on mine is that my Tyree Idaho grape is starting to make a comeback.

You can see in the pic all the dead area, and the stuff on the edges that survived has doubled in space/growth over the past month and a half, you can kinda see the growth tip.

 

[sweevo]

Just a quick update on my own problems. I sent a water sample off to a place in the UK that offers a water testing service and the report I got back confirmed the main params were good. It highlighted though that my iodine was 0 and strontium was 3ppm.

I'm going pick up a bottle of Salifert Natural Iodine and a test kit and work on that first as from what I've read up after getting the report the jury is out on what Strontium actually does etc.

Once I've got the iodine levels and dosing figured out i'll move onto the strontium.

 

[diciple]

try this also for your salt make very sure you mix the bag of slt very good to keep before making water its easy for settlement in a bag or bucket so that yor salts may havefiner particles on bottom etc,or mix a very concetrated solutin to be diluted later at use so all the salt is mixed at once .I hope you and tank the best

 

[redfishsc]

diciple, you are right about mixing the bag up before adding salt to the water.

However, you should NEVER pre-mix the salt in a concentrated solution. If you do that, you will be likely causing a large amount of calcium, alkalinity, and/or magnesium (or other stuff we can't measure) to precipitate out of solution.

Each of these elements has a threshold of how much can be dissolved in water, and when you mix a concentrated batch, you grossly exceed this threshold.

 

[therman]

I've had what sounds like the exact same problem chronically for the past year. Lost virtually all my digis and caps, those remaining seem to grow in cycles and never enough to cover all the old bare skeleton. Just this past week I'm suddenly having RTN on danae/palawanensis colonies that I NEVER had problems with in 2 years and seeing polyp retraction and bare patches on my undata and cebuensis that have always looked perfect while the caps and digis were taking a dump. I haven't added an sps in close to 8 months for fear that it was some sort of disease. Acros have grown like mad during this same period, and some montis have to. I am at a complete loss to explain what is happening in this system.

Various theories I've had included:

1) disease introduction on a digi frag I received about a year ago
2) alk swings...but from what? bad salt mix?
3) Vit C dosing...tried a couple times but never saw any benefit so I quit months ago
4) currents stirring the sandbed. I added a koralia that was consistently stirring a spot in the sandbed which was previously ~3" deep. wondered if I was releasing some accumulated hydrogen sulfide or something else odd.

Unfortunately this was an all monti system so I've lost many many nice corals along the way. I've since expanded into zoas/palys and have a few nice acros going. They will probably be invading the all monti display tank soon, as many of the colonies grown from frags are no longer very stunning...

~250g total system volume
Ca reactor
no dosing
30g water changes with RC 1-2x monthly.
a sixline, foxface, and twospot blenny are the only fish
1-2 cubes mysis or equivalent flake, or homemade blended shellfish/nori mix fed daily
all parameters well within normal limits

Sux.
-Tim

 

[redfishsc]

I've had what sounds like the exact same problem chronically for the past year. Lost virtually all my digis and caps, those remaining seem to grow in cycles and never enough to cover all the old bare skeleton. Just this past week I'm suddenly having RTN on danae/palawanensis colonies that I NEVER had problems with in 2 years and seeing polyp retraction and bare patches on my undata and cebuensis that have always looked perfect while the caps and digis were taking a dump. I haven't added an sps in close to 8 months for fear that it was some sort of disease. Acros have grown like mad during this same period, and some montis have to. I am at a complete loss to explain what is happening in this system.

Sounds like the same thing I had. Did you find that larger colonies were a bit more resistant than smaller frags?


Also, what was your alkalinity at? Other than the vitamin C, were you dosing any other vodka/sugar/vinegar?

Various theories I've had included:

1) disease introduction on a digi frag I received about a year ago
2) alk swings...but from what? bad salt mix?
3) Vit C dosing...tried a couple times but never saw any benefit so I quit months ago
4) currents stirring the sandbed. I added a koralia that was consistently stirring a spot in the sandbed which was previously ~3" deep. wondered if I was releasing some accumulated hydrogen sulfide or something else odd.

A similar list to what I had concluded. I even found that I was producing H2S in a beer bottle that I have in my tank (a "live" one found by a diver on a Vanuatu reef, sent to a local reefer buddy who didn't want it). I capped off the bottle but the montis continued to decline for another month or two.

Mine have recently started making a nice comeback. All but one (orange digi) is showing considerable improvement/regrowth an no further STN.

Unfortunately this was an all monti system so I've lost many many nice corals along the way. I've since expanded into zoas/palys and have a few nice acros going. They will probably be invading the all monti display tank soon, as many of the colonies grown from frags are no longer very stunning...

~250g total system volume
Ca reactor
no dosing
30g water changes with RC 1-2x monthly.
a sixline, foxface, and twospot blenny are the only fish
1-2 cubes mysis or equivalent flake, or homemade blended shellfish/nori mix fed daily
all parameters well within normal limits

Sux.
-Tim

The one thing I might recommend is that you cut back your feedings and perhaps start dosing a carbon source. What are your other water parameters, esp. nitrate and phosphate?

I have been dosing glucose and vitamin C very aggressively and in that time my montis have made a comeback. I am suspecting phosphate may have been a culprit, even though my test kits were reading less than 0.1ppm, which isn't "toxic" to SPS but it does slow their growth. In my case it seems to have been actually killing them slowly (I was feeding VERY heavily and cut it to 3X a week).

The one thing we haven't considered is allelopathy/chemical warfare. I do run a lot of carbon, so I think this would be less of an issue.

 

[therman]

Larger colonies always seemed to have been more resilient, just because the dieoff was gradual and there would still be some good tissue left by the time the "cycle" ended and they could recover.

Alkalinity was at 6-7, usually it's around 8 so I bumped it up when I noticed a some montis looking poorly. When I did that more started receding...

I had cut back my feedings but I had some high end zoas/palys taking a dump and I realized that daily feedings were key to keeping them happy. All have turned around and look great since I increased feeding. This could be a matter of the difficulty of keeping dissimilar corals in the same system, as what makes zoas happy might NOT be what makes montis happy. The quantity of both is getting pretty high, so it could be allelopathy issues.

I am not a big fan of dosing due to both limited time to do it (and guaranteed missed doses), and the idea that it causes fluctuating levels of whatever in the tank. At this point I'm going to do another 30g WC and keep up exactly what I'm doing in hopes that things stabilize.

Corals do not seem to follow any rules.

 

[redfishsc]

Hey guys n gals,

Almost all of the montis are making a dramatic comeback, and I have only a couple clues why. First, I capped off that "live" beer bottle that was producing hydrogen sulfide.

When that didn't appear to make any sort of difference, I gave up and gave taht Ivan Drago line, "if he dies, he dies".

In my battle against bryopsis, I really started heavy carbon dosing for phosphate export. I was using 1/4 tsp of Vitamin C powder and 1/4 tsp of glucose, TWICE a day.

Phosphates dropped from what I considered to be low enough (0.05 to 0.1ppm) to levels the Seachem kit can barely detect (shows no color change at all).


Then BAM! montipora starts a comeback. Maybe the Seachem kit was reading false low readings before, and for the first time after heavy carbon dosing, the phosphate levels actually dropped to a non-toxic, non-inhibiting level.

I know of guys that have phosphates 5X higher (0.5ppm + ) than my tank with growing monti colonies. I dunno.


Anyhow, I posted a pic a few shots up of the monti as it has begun making the comeback.

Here is that same pic again, but followed by a one month later shot, where there is obviously more growth and some scrolling started.

One month later:

Also, my red/orange monti cap was almost TOTALLY dead. There was maybe two 1/2" spots that were still alive, then, in about two months, it looks like this:

:fish1:

 

[fishnut321]

Mine has been doing this for about two months now... Just slowly receding, i have no idea whats going on and what causes it.

 

[redfishsc]

The causes--- and solutions--- that I have suspected in my tank are these, and I'd suggest you try them all just in case.

I'll assume you've checked your tank out at night with a flashlight thoroughly to make sure there are no monti-eating nudis.

1) High alk with combination of carbon/vodka/VSV dosing seems to cause problems with many SPS and was one of my first suspicions. But I'm still dosing, my alk is still high, and the monti is making a comeback.... so I'm not sure I'm sold on this one. Try getting your alk down to around 8 if you are carbon dosing just in case. Anything above 8 often causes burnt tips for some people.

2) Chemical warfare/allelopathy--- run a good bit more carbon than you normally would, and change it every 3 weeks or so.

3) Hydrogen sulfide--- I have a "live" beer bottle in my tank than came from the Pacific Rim (forget the island) that came in with a LR shipment, so I bought it. Recently I pulled it out to remove some hair algae and smelled a HORRID hydrogen sulfide smell in it, so I plugged it with epoxy putty.

4) Now I suspect phosphate was the issue since I actually gave up on the montis and started dosing even more glucose/Vitamin C for phosphate removal. Once phosphates hit rock bottom (undetectable on the Seachem kit) my montis started making a comeback. My phosphates were at 0.05ppm before, now they read 0.00ppm. I don't believe either reading, but it's safe to say that phosphate went from "something high" to "something low".

 

[sweevo]

Just a quick update on how things are going my end. The Monti's have been on the mend for a good few weeks now, the pink tips have returned and they've started growing again.

I started to dose Salifert Natural Iodine not long after my last post and because the test kit was constantly reading zero I kept on dosing it day after day. After about 3 weeks of zero readings I started to get concerned but the results in the tank suggested that things were working out. All the tissue recession stopped a few weeks back. Also my plating monti's returned to a nice deep orange/red colour (had been on a slow fade) and the green confusa is going a nice deep green again. The pic doesn't really do the colours justice, but here's one anyway.

So in my case the only two things I've changed are dosing Iodine which I never did before as I thought weekly WC's would keep it up at a safe level. I also switched to dosing my Bio Calcium daily rather than twice a week so I guess this would result in a more stable dKH as the hydrogen carbonate in it is quite potent, ie same amount but spread over a week. Could be one or both of the above or even neither !

Hope your monti's are still on the mend too.

 

[redfishsc]

Yes, they are indeed! They are growing and starting to scroll, which they didn't do a lot of even before they started to decline. I'm still scratching my head as to why they went downhill and then came back.

Either way, I'm happy



And your stuff looks great too! Very nice!